Piano lessons on line

[John King]

Does anyone have an opinion or comments about on-line piano lessons, specifically "lessons@keyboard" for an intermediate cocktail lounge type player which I think I might be classified as.

King CVP303

[pianogirl]

This is my opinion...

As a piano instructor I have looked at many different sites claiming to teach piano. So far none have met the challenge. The site you mentioned makes many claims that are virtually impossible for a beginner. Because you say you have previous experience as a musician you may be better off locating a private instructor that specializes in jazz and event performance. Their insight might well be worth its weight in gold. You might even learn how to get a gig.

You may find it interesting to know that I have had several piano students come to me as a result of frustrated efforts with a video they had purchased on how to play piano or an online deal that didn't work. They were unhappy because their money was wasted on a product that didn't work.

However, I've seen cases where major universities have well know instructors connected by video phone to a student who may not be in the same state, let alone the same country. While physically not there, a teacher can speak with the student and demonstrate and vice vs. This can be a very productive arrangement for lessons.

My advice is to find another route; in particular a qualified instructor. You'll be happy you did.

pianogirl

[John King]

Thanks very much PG.
I was particularly interested in one of the sections of the web site I mentioned; that to do with what he called "Phat chords". I like to use combinations that might be called that, I call them "Lucious chords" but, oh well, the beauty is in the ear? of the beh____ . Anyway, I like to learn new chords. I said that I think I'm a cocktail lounge player but on a 1 to 10 scale in that category I would be about a 3. I did have some gigs a few years ago but haven't had time for it. Now that I've become an octogenarian maybe it would be fun.
Thanks for your advice. I think I'll take it.
King CVP303

[tm255]

john

you might want to take a look at www.sudnow.com. i've been doing this course since last fall and am very pleased with it. it's focus is creating interesting, lush, full chords using "cocktail piano" style as a nidus. although the instructor prefers the term "jazz standards." :)

a good (not always easy to find) personal instructor is imo the ideal solution, but there are defininite advantages (especially time and financial) with an online or "DIY" system.

[Orbit]

I have no personal experience with either method, but there is a TON of discussion on the Sudnow method, as well as another method called Piano Magic, over at the Piano world Forum.

You can hop over to:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

I mostly read the Adult Beginner Forum there, and so that is where I found most of the posts on those groups, but you can just do a search and you will see some heated discussions on both groups.

I will be moving shortly and have thought about live Web-cam based lessons with my current teacher. I like that he teaches both classical and jazz styles and we have a good rapport.

Anyone try this kind of long distance method?

(I can repost to a more on-topic thread, but the topic was already brought up...and I'm using a 309, so maybe that counts ;) )

[tm255]

orbit the www cam sounds like a great idea to me. i once had the idea of mailing or emailing video back and forth, but a www cam should be better because of the immediate feedback.

if i may pose a CVP query ...

i tried PMing pianogirl, but her mailbox is full. orbit i'd like your opinion also, or anyone else.

it is interesting to me that pianogirl is an instructor, and also a 307 owner. in my experience most piano instructors that i have heard comment on the subject almost universally condemn digital pianos. i'm guessing that they are not experienced with the high end instruments, but who knows.

anyway, i'm a 6 month beginner intending to replace my aged yamaha keyboard with a better instrument. i've looked at acoustic pianos, and the CVPs. while on a sound basis only, i give the nod to the acoustic grands, i'm wondering how i might benefit, especially from a learning standpoint, from all the accompaniment and instructional features of the CVP. the salesmen that i've encountered have been able to show me the saxophone sound on the CVP :), but not a whole lot more.

what value do you think there might be to a beginner as far as the instructional features? do you see much value to being able to play along with the accompaniments, or is this just more for entertainment value? or do you think that since i have the space and funds, i should pursue the acoustic grand?

thanks very much for your thoughts!

[pianogirl]

Sorry, I didn't know my mailbox could get full.

tm255...I used to be one of those instructors that condemned digital equipment for learning purposes. The main reasons were sound quality, feel, and lack of pedal/pedal feel. You will also find that most instructors are still in the dark on the subject as I did when I've tried discussing my new findings with some. It has to do with not welcoming change/technology and the inability to do things differently than how one was taught and doing things differently than they have done things for the past 30 years.

The CVP-307 was my first digital piano purchase. I already own an acoustic so I didn't have to decide between the two. I personally used the 307 for practice of scales. I add accompaniment and different instruments to them to spice things up. It has also been helpful in learning complicated piano music. In particular playing 5 against 2, or 10 against 4. It is especially helpful for learning Bach Inventions. I also use it for popular music with accompaniment. Our family uses the kareoke feature and my 307 is connected to my computer where I use Sibelius, a music notation software. Thru this software I create CDs for students and their performance.

I've been partial to the Yamaha brand for some time and have been watching their development closely. When I sat and played the 307, that was it, I had to have it.

Yes, in my opinion the acoustic takes the cake, but the Clavinova is a close second. If you are used to playing a keyboad, by all means replace it with a Clavinova. Unless there is some reason you need the acoustic you can't go wrong with a Clavinova. I'd recommend the 309 for it's better key feel. That's one thing I'd change if I bought again. But I couldn't afford it at the time.

If I had the funds I'd buy my 9' Yamaha Concert Grand, but that's more for personal satisfaction. I'd want this because of the pedals, the hugh rich thick tone and it's note repition ease. For a beginning or intermediate student this is completely unnecessary.
So it really is up to what you prefer to hear and only you can decide that.

pianogirl

[Eric Brinkerink]

Maybe a bit off topic, but I keep reading about "cocktail pianists". As I'm Dutch, this doesn't ring any bells.
So can somebody tell me what a cocktail pianist is?

[tm255]

eric, to me "cocktail piano" draws up the image of a bar, with a pianist turning out tunes such as "misty," "as time goes by," etc. in a very relaxed atmosphere.

pianogirl thanks for the comments. i don't know what bach inventions, 5 against 2, and 10 against 4 are (i assume time signatures in classical music) so that tells you that i am indeed a rookie!:)

it is too bad one can't have a long trial (like a month?) with these expensive products. would i still be enamored with the sound of the grand, as it goes out of tune (again, and again)? would i be thrilled with the accompaniment features of the CVP down the road, or would it just be an interesting play for a few days?

nice to have choices, i guess!

thanks again!

[Orbit]

Originally posted by tm255
i'm wondering how i might benefit, especially from a learning standpoint, from all the accompaniment and instructional features of the CVP

Hi TM255,

For what it's worth, here are some of my thoughts. I think that both digitals and acoustic pianos have their niche, and that it comes down to space, finances, and personal preferences. In the ideal world (and maybe one day), I would own both.

I've a relative beginner too - I self-taught with a method book for a year, and have been having formal lessons for about 8 months. I've also played trumpet in the past.

I went the digital route because:
1) I needed the ability to play with headphones. You can get acoustic siliencers on "real" piano's, such as in the disklavier line, but then you are paying for a real piano.

2) I liked the gizmo/techno features of the CVP
I have found the playback features of the CVP VERY valuable in learning classical music. I download midi files (for free from classical music archives, you can get more files with membership) and then transfer to the CVP. One of the nice features of many classical files, is that they have the ACTUAL score and are out of copyright. You can also find or purchase midi files for pop music but the quality may vary.

I then playback the piece, left hand, right hand separately, or hands together as needed. I slow it way down and set up the auto repeat section to practice just the section that I am working on. I use the built in metrotome synched with the playback tempo.

I find it very helpful to hear how a piece goes if I am having trouble with the rhythms or just can't seem to "get it" on my own. I can play either hand separately while the CVP plays the other.

I have played around the styles and accompaniment features. I think I will be able to grow into them more and more as I become a better pianist.



I started taking lessons from the salesman who sold me my CVP. He would provide some files on disk so I could hear the right way a piece goes. I would at times record my piece at home and bring the disc for him to hear what I was able to play (at least once).

3) you never have to tune a digital

4) adaptability

After a few months I graduated to a more traditional teacher who is not all that techo-minded himself. (although we still might go the web-route above). He's played and taught piano professionally for over 30 years, including running a conservatory. When I take my current lessons, we usually play on acoustics - sometimes yamaha grands, sometimes a variety of uprights ( I take lessons at the dealer). I find the transition from my 309PE to an acoustic very easy - that is I don't feel that I'm losing technique by not practising on a "real" piano. In fact, the CVP has a better keyboard than many of the lesson pianos.

5) player piano
There are a ton of midi files out there, as well as special software designed for Yamaha digitals. I worked a deal when I bought my CVP to get several discs thrown in. It's great to have some nice piano lounge style music in the background, especially when entertaning. The "megavoice" technology on the CVP is quite good at reproducing several midi instruments, so, depending on the file, it's like having a band in your living room.

6) this forum - I have found the group here extrememely helpful in learning the features of the CVP and taking advantage of what these instruments can do- sure you can be a member of this great community without owning a CVP, but it's even more fun if you do
(I trolled here for a year before my purchase)

That said, I've played on both digitals and acoustics to know that as good as the digitals are, there is still something about the sound quality of a live acoustic that is not readily reproduced. (the technology is getting better - I would put up a recording of the CVP or high end software piano to a recording a real piano however - might not be totally even, but would be close; also you can always "upgrade" the sound of your digital by adding additional hardware or software synth modules as newer technology becomes available -the current CVPs have USB, so that should provide a long life span of upgradability)

I could see myself one day practicing on the CVP (with headphones, so as not to disturb the family) and then play for guests or for my own amusement on weekends on an acoustic (might as well make it a grand, as long as I'm dreaming)

However, I only havethe space for one piano right now and really enjoy the gizmo factor of the CVP. Plus, there's no place to plug in headphones on a Steinway. I have absolutely no regrets going digital for my first purchase.

well, that's my 0.02 -
I'm sure you'll find that keyboard that's right for you - let us know what you decide!

Orbit

[Ian J. Evans]

I think that Orbit pretty well said it all for me.

I have had a digital for 18 years...where o' where did it go...?

I take lessons from a real live teacher who is great, but I still use DVD's and DIY books as a supplement. So I do not totally agree with Pianogirl that they are not good, of course there good and not so good in all fields. I find at my advanced age I need to read, reread and reread many times to get it through my skull. It costs more my way, but I'm spending the kid's inheritance, if I don't they will...!

I am glad that I can do both.

Ian

[tm255]

thanks, orbit and ian -- excellent summary!

one of my goals is to get good enough on piano to be able to play some informal keyboard with a group of friends in a band. when i was playing guitar, over and over i heard, "if you want to get better, play with other people." so, i'm assuming that downloading a midi file to the CVP and playing the keyboard part would be a similar learning experience.

i could probably do something similar with a piano and my computer together, but mixing and balancing might be trickier.

anyway, lots of food for thought. hopefully i can get some more showroom time with these instruments.

and i hope john king checks out sudnow and pianomagic! i feel bad about jacking his thread.

[John King]

And tm, I have checked them out and they look very interesting. But I don't think I really want to go that whole route and start at the beginning. As I said, I'm interested in "phat", "lucious", or whatever you want to call them chords, so maybe I should just peruse the books in the local music stores. Actually, the CVP provides a remarkable facility for learning chords by simply watching the lights on the keyboard when slow playing a MIDI file by someone like Doug McKenzie. But I am looking at Sudnow and also a local instructor who has several CDs out and plays in the Bill Evans style.

Now I have another question. Maybe I should start a new thread.

The question is:
Is it possible to play the accompaniment for a song and save it and then make it repeat four or five times while playing different leads along with it as it repeats. I thought maybe I could play the piece, copy it several times, and then change the bar notation in the edit mode in order to tack the second one on the end of the first and so on. But I would have to do it for every note in all of eight or ten channels. Too much.
King CVP303

[tm255]

john i apologize if i sound like a broken record, but for what you want i think the sudnow course would be perfect. there are a number of folks using his method who brought a lot of prior piano experience to the table -- it is definitely not just for beginners.

i was looking for a good DIY course to gain a foundation in some basic piano playing. i was reluctant to try sudnow, because i actually *hated* "cocktail" piano. but, once i heard the beautiful full chords that i was playing i was hooked, and have gone on to develop an appreciation for a whole new (to me) style of music. for the last week or so i've found myself humming one of my new tunes (melancholy baby) throughout the day, and i can't wait to get home to the keyboard and play through it!

there is a 90 day money back guarantee if you don't like the course.

OK, OK, i've gotten carried away again. sorry. :)

good luck in finding the best solution for you!

[John King]

How about posting one of your songs, tm. Melancholy Baby perhaps. Or e-mail it to me. I'd really like to hear it. Might be a good representation of the Sudnow method.
King CVP303

[tm255]

john i'd love to but i don't have recording capability at present.

the videos on the www site give a "taste" of the sound. i think that he should post a full recording of one of his songs for folks to preview.

[Jane]

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