DSP and Reverb effects

[dbjorck]

Hi!

On suggestion by ericho, here is a thread about the DSP effects. My original problem was that when I record all 16 tracks, the CVP will apparently arbitrarily switch off the DSP effects. If I put it back in for one track, it will switch off another without telling me which. For instance, in my last recording Stop that song (http://cvpug.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2622) tracks 4, 5, 6, 7 (and more) have absolutely no effects and almost sound like a cheap plastic electric organ from 30 years ago. If I rerecord track 4 it sounds fine, but then when I rerecord track 5 suddenly track 4 doesn't sound fine again.

On my 208 dsp1 can be used either as a style or master 1 is assigned to song (almost a master effect) the other dsp are typical insert effects and can be inserted in main,left,layer,mic etc
I think I see what you mean by Master and Insert. On the screen DSP1 defaults for all tracks (looking like a Master), you don't see DSP2-6. You have to go to Type to assign it to individual tracks. However, I'm quite certain I once suceeded in setting the DSP on the main screen to a different DSP block for a single track. I remember it was very difficult and I have not been able to repeat it.

(my 208 has more assigning possibilities than there are DSP's so the manual states "Unused dsp blocks are automatically assigned to active parts", there is no on/off switch for this )
You can set the DSP1 type to 0 ('No Effect', MSB 0) in MIDI, that acts like an off switch. (At least according to the Data List book). And in the physical world you press the Voice Effect button, and there you have an option to switch DSP off.

And this button is exactly where my problems start. You see, this DSP selection under the Voice Effect button switches itself to Off by itself. It has always done that. Never for the first few parts, but after a few tracks it starts to switch off. For every track I have to make sure it is set to On before recording. It will then sound fine while recording, and fine listening to it when done. But when I start to record the new track it is set to Off again so I switch it back on again. And again the new track sounds fine. But - I believe it is here that whatever that selection does, now gets undone to the old track. I also noticed a long time ago that going into the 1-16 tab on the Song Creator display will consistently set the DSP to Off. So I keep going in here to keep the effects on.

I have however now made a startling discovery. I was convinced my problem was with DSP, since it is consistently this DSP Off switch that changes and makes the sounds different. But it isn't; the effect I keep losing is Hall1, which is an Effect1 (Reverb) effect, not DSP at all. In fact I don't even want to use DSP, all I want is Reverb. It appears that this DSP Off switch not only turns off DSP but all effects, including Reverb and Chorus. Why?! A look at the Mixing Console confirms that most Reverb levels are 0, which they wouldn't have been when I recorded.

So I got to thinking that it is some form of protection of polyphony. But it shouldn't be running out. So I set all the Reverb levels - and what do you know! They all sound fine. No polyphony problems either.

So why, and when, does it automatically set Reverb to 0???! Or is it some third thing that gets reset and I'm only counteracting it by increasing Reverb now?

Brgds

Danny

[ericho]

So why, and when, does it automatically set Reverb to 0???! Or is it some third thing that gets reset and I'm only counteracting it by increasing Reverb now?

Whatever setting for the master (system) effects at the time you start recording a track is copied into that track

example

you start record channel1 part main (sweet violin)
the voices values are rev 43 chorus 0 dsp 0
you record the track and now the effect values are copied to track1

the second track channel2 part main (strings)
the voice values are rev0 chorus 0 dsp 43 "Hall3"
record the track and the effect values are copied

at the 3th track you can already start running into trouble
you want an organ here with a rotary dsp effect, the part main can only hold 1 dsp effect so in track 3 the dsp setting will be copied into the track and in the other tracks dsp is turned off.
in this case the track2 is left completely dry,


basically if you record part main 10 times, you got 1 rev 1 chorus and 1 dsp at your disposal for all 10 tracks

before you record a track go to mixing console/effect and change the amount of effect send to your wishes, they will be automatically recorded into the midi track.


Kind kegards

Eric

[dbjorck]

Hi!

So how about track 1; rev Hall1 30, chorus 0, DSP 0. Track 2; rev Hall1 30, chorus 0, DSP 0. Track 3; rev Hall1 30, chorus 0, DSP 0. No DSP2-6 on any of them.

Should that really be a problem???

Brgds

Danny

[ericho]

Hi

No, no problem, reverb is a master effect when set on hall1 it counts for all tracks.

as you know the amount you sent tru the master(system) reverb can be adjusted for every track individually ranging from 0 (dry, bypass all strait to the eq) to 127 (all tru the effect)

The same for the chorus

1dsp can be set up behind the mixer parallel to the reverb and chorus effect blok, the amount of signal you sent tru it is done in the same way

So 3 effect bloks (units) for all the channels(tracks) with individual sent level.

The other DSP are inserted before the mixer and are for 1 voice only
How you exactly do this is not clear yet, I guess by selecting part main, left layer etc the dsp that is assigned to the voice will remain in the song.
Ones you record 2 tracks with part left, only one will have an active dsp, the other will be at dsp0
If by coincidence the voice did not use any reverb ore chorus in its original setup than it will be completely dry in a song.

There is a signal flow chart in the manual, it help to understand the position of the effect units.

keep in mind that every voice has a effect setup of it's own
ones u selected a voice and record it, the cvp will automatically try to copy the effect setting into the song.
In large song you need to take control over the whole signal flow
This automatic stuff is nice for a main, left, style part ->3 tracks end of story.
with larger compositions (like 16tracks) you surely run in to the limitations


For your needs not a big problem, as I understand you want all your tracks more or less tru the same reverb.

If you want a song with voices using delay, echo, whawha, lesly simulations, panning, tremmolo etc
they are all dsp effect and in a song you'll soon run out.

Kind regards

Eric

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Yes, problem. And a repeatable one too.

First I rerecorded track 4, using the standard Sweet! AltoSax voice. I didn't touch a thing, all the settings were left as they become when you select a voice from the panel. I did not even enter a single screen, including Mixing console, before recording. The result is as follows: Example 1 (http://www.box.net/shared/static/8aciy1knel.mp3). Perfectly fine, sounds just like the voice when you select it from the panel.

Then I rerecorded track 5, using Sweet! TenorSax, again without making any changes or even opening up a single window. Track 5 indeed sounds fine. But now, suddenly for no apparent reason, track 4 sounds like this: Example 2 (http://www.box.net/shared/static/m8v8s1trsz.mp3) - totally dry. This happens every single time I try it.

And it is not a change to the Reverb effect after all, because the Reverb setting stays at 50 in the second example. And it is not DSP either, because it is set to 0, and besides the DSP1 type is a time delayed echo and that's not the difference in sound. Can you hear what is missing from the second example? To me it sounds like it is Hall1 that is missing.

So I definitely believe that somewhere buried on the Sys/Ex tab there gets inserted a command that switches off all effects for various tracks. Unfortunately it is not predictable when and for which tracks. It does seem to depend on the piece. Mostly the problems start at track 4 or up to track 8. But within that piece it is consistent when rerecording.

It is not a size issue either. I tried creating a whole new song. I recorded two bars AltoSax on track 1, two bars TenorSax on track 2. This was fine. I recorded another two bars AltoSax on track 4, and TenorSax on track 5. This still sounded fine in the recording - but the keyboard was now left totally dry. This has been the case eversince I got the instrument. I posted about it here back then, hoping that MidiMagic could help since it must be a MIDI event underlying it. Alas no.

Brgds

Danny

[ericho]

Dany,

I'mgonna recreate it on my 208 and try to find out why this happens.
I'm a bit at a loss too, somehow I don't have this problem ??
I'll get back to you tomorrow

Kind regards

Eric

[ericho]

Hi

I just did the following

Select a voice

Go to mixing pannel/effects/pannel part

select the dsp under main -> press type and turn it off

turn up the reverb under main and set it higher than 0
sometimes the chorus too

press record and the channel simultaneous and select main

record the channel

repeat this 10 times for 10 channels, all the reverb settings stayed foot in the song.

On the second channel I used an annoying amount of echo delay (dsp)
this also stayed foot.

channel 11 I ignored everything and just recorded --> after recording the channel was completely dry ??, the others seemed unaffected.

http://users.telenet.be/VicR3/rinity/10.MID

try the test song 10.mid on your cvp,, see if the reverb settings are all there ??

never mind timing etc in the song I totally ignored it and don't play it on a computer ...that's horrible

Eric

[dbjorck]

Hi!

channel 11 I ignored everything and just recorded --> after recording the channel was completely dry ??, the others seemed unaffected.

Then you also have the sudden dry effect. I have been trying to create a repeatable example myself as well meanwhile. First I tried to do a simple arpeggiated chord on all 16 tracks each in succession using AltoSax. No problems. Then I tried it using different voices. At first no problems, but after a while it came back, and then it hit me. In your example, until track 11, you are manually switching off DSP before recording. So it is only Reverb, and that does indeed stick.

The problem is that all voices have different DSP2-6 types, so as soon as you have selected a voice which has a sixth DSP2 type, you run out of processors and one gets shut down. So the solution is to manually switch off DSP before recording like you did, and only use Reverb. And then later select the voices where an extra DSP would be good and add that. But that means the voices are not exactly recorded as they sound as they are missing the DSP effect that Yamaha had added. Many of them have various Hall reverbs, Plate reverbs, etc as DSP. So I still feel this is not good enough for such a high price product, although I understand the technology limitation. And I'd still like control over which track to take out of the DSP, percussion instruments for instance don't make much difference, whereas church organ makes a big difference. It would be perfect if a warning window came up when you are trying to record with a voice that has a DSP other than the previous 4, and let you select what to do. I'm sure there is a complex algorithm behind it all selecting what to do automatically, but that is not good enough. I need to be able to have artistic control over how it sounds.

Brgds

Danny

[dbjorck]

PS. I forgot to mention that I liked your recording! You should post more of that in the Creations group.

Brgds

Danny

[ericho]

Dany,

So, I think we found a way to make use of the effects in the most optimal way possible on a cvp, for large creations that is..:)

The effect section of a cvp is very good in my opinion, it has a strange way of control and the architecture could be way better

Workstations like the Yamaha motif, give you more control, but are no better than the cvp.

I have a few external 19" dsp's in my home studio and the quality of the effects is certainly not better than the ones in the cvp.

Only korg has better effect sections in there electronic instruments,
the korg workstations offer full control over the effect.
for example an korg oasys has 22inserts, 2master, 1general effect and all of them have several 100's types with even more parameters.
Its no fun really, its simply to complex.

I liked your recording

Thx, it was terrible really...I need at least a day to arrange a good song, that 11-voice effect experiment 10.mid was composed and recorded in less than 1 hour.:o

[dbjorck]

Hi!

I need at least a day to arrange a good song, that 11-voice effect experiment 10.mid was composed and recorded in less than 1 hour.:o
It didn't sound like it, it sounded like you spent a lot of time. Composing and recording 11 tracks in less than an hour is a feat. And as I say, I liked the result.

I have proved that this "new method" works by the way, yesterday afternoon I recorded 16 tracks, without problems. I'm about to post it in the Creations group now.

Brgds

Danny