Piano Sounds Are Not Good

[jordygolfing]

Okay, I purchased 405 with the option to return it in 30 days cause I wasn't convinced I loved the piano sounds. Now, I'm comparing the sound on the 405 to my Yamaha s90es "Full Grand". Now we are talking a way lower quality keyboard right? Anyway, I have edited for 8 hours today to get the sound like I wanted and came up with nothing. I went back and forth listening to the s90 and 405 and as I was doing so, I noticed that when I press the sustain pedal on the s90 and play a note, the sustain really opens up and just sound wonderful. However, when I play a note on the 405 and play the sustain, the note is the same quality without any other overtones.

So, before I return this piano, can anyone tell me what else I can do? The 405 piano sounds have an effect as if they are in a "Box" or very boxy, but the s90 is airy and the sound effect changes when I press the sustain. Short of returning the piano, I take any suggestions.

Thank you

This is what I found to be the difference:

The S90 ES an 88-note weighted action digital piano with the sonic flexibility of a synth or a synthesizer with the best sounding piano samples ever available? Actually, its the perfect balance of both. The new multi-velocity stereo samples of Yamahas hand-built S700 grand piano, the damper reverb effects, and half damper capability all ensure the S90 ES has the most expressive acoustic piano sound Yamaha has ever offered in a synthesizer. The 128-note polyphony tone generator based on the award winning Motif ES (including 8 inserts, 2 system and separate mastering effects) and Studio Connections, mLAN, and PLG expandability give it all the sonic power and control flexibility of our Motif ES workstation lineup.

The new S90 ES, the perfect balance of synthesizer and piano.

The Most Expressive Piano Voice Available in a Synth

Element Edit Mode
In designing the S90 ESs new grand piano voice, the focus was in creating a voice that produces naturally sounding long tones even when played at a pianissimo level. To realize this goal, a generous 53MB of memory was dedicated to this voice to use longer samples of a specially selected S700 grand piano – a $250,000 acoustic grand handcrafted by Yamahas master artisans. Played at normal tempos and dynamic levels the sound of this voice is truly superb, but its at the opposite end of the tempo and dynamic range that the results are most stunning. The longer waves give each note a very natural sustain that, when used on ballads and slow, exposed pieces, plays expressively with a full, natural sound.

This voice also features stretch tuning and a damper resonance effect, which bring this voice even closer to reality by simulating the inner workings of an acoustic grand piano. Damper resonance simulates the resonance of the strings and soundboard when the damper pedal is pressed – a factor that contributes to the unique sound of a grand piano. Using the sustain pedal on soft, slow pieces it adds a rich resonance to the pianos tone and enhances its natural sustain and decay. [/B][/I][/B]

[tomtomsf]

I am guessing that, just like acoustic pianos, variations in sound from one model & brand to the next are inherent in the basic instrument. You can not turn a 405 into an s90es. I hate to sound so pessimistic. I have a newer Tyros3. It was touted for its all new LiveConcertGrand! voice by Yamaha. Yamaha says it's directly from the Clavinova sample. Well, it doesn't sound like a Clavinova. In fact, it doesn't sound as good as my old Tyros 2 LiveGrand! Yamaha has gotten a lot of complaints from Tyros3 owners about this. They might issue an update or new sample to replace it (the T3 can load new sample voices but the Clavinova can not). It is what it is, at least for now.

Maybe someone will suggest some piano edits that will make the 405 voice more to your liking. I somewhat doubt it, though.

Tom G.

[kempedkemp]

I have not heard this model yet but I am curious, does it have iAFC and has it been calibrated to the room? That is the only thing I can think of that might make a big difference.

[jordygolfing]

well, I returned the 405, and believe it or not the piano sound on the s90es is much better to me that is. The reason for my preference is an effect on the s90 that as you press the sustain pedal, you hear the notes you've played resonate but you also hear some harmonic overtones as if you're pressing the pedal on an acoustic. On the 405, the sustain only sustains the sound of the notes you're playing without that damper effect of the s90es.

Yes, it was quite shocking that I would prefer the s90es over the 405, but the warmth and resonating sound of the s90es Full Grand is going to be hard to beat. I adjusted the 405 and set user piano sounds for about 10 hours and after all that I done, it improved, but still fell short of the s90 full grand. I understand the s90 has more "memory" for the piano sounds, therefore, the piano sound is bigger so to speak. I am really disappointed, because I love the action, the features and the speakers of the 405. It is the easiest piece of equipment I've ever used and I can go on and on, however, I primarily play piano and want the recording features and the piano sound is first and foremost to me. I did not realize the s90 didn't have a sequencer on board, but I'll have to wrap my head around connecting it to a computer, which is why I love the 405 so much, but now I'm going to have to suck it up learn how to record on cubase...

If anyone else knows what other yamaha keyboards/workstations have the same effect of the s90, I would sure like to know.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

well, I returned the 405, and believe it or not the piano sound on the s90es is much better to me that is. The reason for my preference is an effect on the s90 that as you press the sustain pedal, you hear the notes you've played resonate but you also hear some harmonic overtones as if you're pressing the pedal on an acoustic. On the 405, the sustain only sustains the sound of the notes you're playing without that damper effect of the s90es.


You obviously have a very discerning ear. How does this sound to you: Clair de Lune (http://cid-6610611310e42a4e.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/My%20Music/Impressionism/Clair%20de%20Lune.wma)
It uses plenty of damper and sustain.

Brgds

Danny

[Huygens]

If anyone else knows what other yamaha keyboards/workstations have the same effect of the s90, I would sure like to know.

jordygolfing & everyone else, please, if you have the opportunity to compare the sound of CVP-509 with the S90 ES, let us know.

I guess the CVP-405 has the same sound as CVP-409, so a comparison of the 409 would not be that interesting?

There are no CVPs better than 403 where I live, so I hope someone will bring light on this matter.

[Jaish]

I am also interested to hear what people think of the S90ES grand versus the 509 main piano sound. OR the CVP409 vs CVP509 piano sound.

I heard that the improved samples in the CVP509 are meant to be much better than the CVP409 (and I found the CVP409 to sound a little "off" also). Almost a little muffled sounding and lacking "air" - especially compared to my P250.

[ericho]

I love the sound of the s90es piano-sample too :cool:
Its very Nice, bright and a bit more digital compared to the cvp's
Its not as close to a acoustic grand as the cvp are,, but that doesn't necessarily mean its no good, To an individual it may sound better than anything else....
In the end its a matter of taste,

Eric

[dbjorck]

Hi!

I've been baffled about what your problem actually is since I first read it, and you haven't replied to anyone. It seemed to me you had made up your mind before posting that you actually wanted the s90, not a CVP.

The reason for my preference is an effect on the s90 that as you press the sustain pedal, you hear the notes you've played resonate but you also hear some harmonic overtones as if you're pressing the pedal on an acoustic.
"Overtones" is what is called String Resonance. The amount of resonance is configurable, and since you say you've been at it for 10 hours I assume you have looked at that.

On the 405, the sustain only sustains the sound of the notes you're playing without that damper effect of the s90es.
You are totally losing me here, which is why I posted the example from my CVP to get you to explain the problem more. Is it sustain or damper?

As to the overtones "resonating", if I play a staccato note, and then press the sustain before the resonance has finised; it will indeed sustain the resonance; including the overtones. In fact, if you increase the String Resonance Depth, you will hear the overtones still sounding after the main tone has died out.

but the warmth and resonating sound of the s90es Full Grand is going to be hard to beat.
Did you try tweaking the Compressor?

Brgds

Danny

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Almost a little muffled sounding and lacking "air" - especially compared to my P250.
I agree that the factory settings are "dry" and uninspiring. But you can change that a lot by tweaking iAFC, Equalizer, DSP, and Compressor.

Brgds

Danny

[tripas30]

I have a CVP 407 and I like the sound very much. But I had to add sustain to the original factory setings, because the sound was too hard, specialy when I play with headphones (so I do not disturb anyone).

[ericho]

I have not heard this model yet but I am curious, does it have iAFC and has it been calibrated to the room? That is the only thing I can think of that might make a big difference.


Hi Ed,

No it has none of those things

It is basically a Motif ES synthesizer + an extra 50mb piano sample
It offers a good piano sound without having to drag a clavinova or Acoustic on stage.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXhY0tGjzI4

So no amplification, speakers, iAFC or anything close to that
The piano-sample sound close to one of the LIVE voices on older clavs (200 series)
It does not have as much detail as the clavinovas main piano voices but it is still a very good sound nonetheless.

The s90es is discontinued and followed with the current s90xs
The piano-sound of the ES is way better than the one on the XS
The XS is a better all round stage-beast.

Kind regards

Eric

[anorganic]

I try S90 too before i bought cvp 407 and i have to say that 407 is so much better for me. I quite agree with boxy sound of cvp's but in comparision to acoustic pianos. When i compare all keyboards and digital pianos i have to say that i find cvp 407 as best one.

I make another thread about cvp 407 sound but i want say two things:
1) S90 is with headpohones and u play on cvp with headphones too? Or u use yamaha's speakers? This could be one difference - i think quite big one ;).
2) from my point of view it's little bit about adaptation. I am used to play aquistic piano and when i get cvp 407 (one week ago :) i thought a lot of about good/bad deal. I want say that i satisfied after first weekend and i think it will be better next weekend too :).

J.

[Jaish]

I quite agree with boxy sound of cvp's but in comparision to acoustic pianos. When i compare all keyboards and digital pianos i have to say that i find cvp 407 as best one.

That's a good point. I think a lot of it also has to do with our ear "tolerance". I mean, if for example you're listening to your stereo and you maximise the Treble / high frequencies - after a few minutes, a flat EQ or non-boosted setting will sound dull...

I imagine it to be similar (although perhaps not as extreme as my example) when hearing a "bright" piano sound and then hearing a lower frequency mellow sound. As long as the "bright" sound isn't tinny and uncomfortable, it will likely sound "better" for that short period of time.