To CVP 509 owners

[JohnDiV]

To all who own CVP 509PE and maybe the 500 series not sure about that.

There is an issue with the amp inside. I have a slight humming sound from the speakers below. Does not depend on volume. They are sending a repair guy out to cut a trace on the board to separate the DC an AC ground. It is not a loud hum at all and you only hear it when your head is under the piano, however it is there and it is 60 cycle hum. Just a heads up for the 509 owners. I am not sure what serial numbers are affected, or I am just the lucky one, but this unit was made on 1-19-2010. Really recent.

[JohnDiV]

Just wanted to let everyone know that the hum that I had written a post about was fixed today. Yamaha's fix to cut a trace on the board to seperated the DC and AC grounds and it worked like a charm. No more slight hum.

Again this was a low level of noise but it was a 60 cycle hum and not a broad sprecturm of noise (hiss) which is nomal to have a little of when you put your ear about 2" to 6" near a speaker or on the speaer grill(s).

[Gwenlyn Norton]

Thanks so much for the information, John. We just purchased the 509 and do not hear any hum. We must be one of the lucky ones. We will certainly keep our 'ears peeled,' however.

[Nikki]

My CVP-509 does appear to have this hum. I can't hear it when I sit to play. If it's only audible when I have my ear inches from the speakers then it may not bother me. Who knows, I may want to sell it in a year or two and the buyer may want to know if this fault has been fixed. In this case I may want to have it fixed. There was a YouTube video demonstrating this fault, but it appears to have been removed. Is there any situation, apart from when one's ear is close to the speakers, where this hum is an issue?

How much do the engineers have to dissect to get to the PCB?

Nikki

[JohnDiV]

Hi Nikki,

No the only issue was the hum.

[Nikki]

Hi Nikki,
I would get it fixed if I were you while the are hot to fix it.


OK, I'll definitely get it fixed. I have an aquarium running a pump just a metre away that emits a 50hz hum so it's masked a little.

Nikki

[bigaxl]

There was a YouTube video demonstrating this fault, but it appears to have been removed. Nikki

This video was uploaded by myself. I removed it, cause here ist a deal with Yamaha Europe. This week my CVP-509 will be changed to a complete new one. I will report...

[Nikki]

This video was uploaded by myself. I removed it, cause here ist a deal with Yamaha Europe. This week my CVP-509 will be changed to a complete new one. I will report...

Small world. Do you mean "it's a deal"? A new one? You've got my attention now. I will await your report..

[bigaxl]

A new one?

Yes. I own my CVP since last 15.12.2009. I told my dealer/Yamaha, that I don´t tolerate any repair or experiments. No betatesting here!

[RBmusic]

Without knowing the SPECIFIC circuit board I am of the opinion that cutting etch is a hack and tacky way of fixing ground hum.

How & why anyone got to connect a/c ground to the amp (audio section) ground on the same board is just weird.
IMO it represents a DESIGN PROCESS problem, I can't see cutting etch at a place where it just happens to be convenient to do so, as any kind of a solution, just a hack.

No design rules at that place ?
I guess not (-:

[JohnDiV]

The connection of the AC and DC ground
Just my thoughts. PS no hum or hiss anymore.

[Nikki]

Not an experiment, a valid fix.

Thanks for allaying my fears. Was starting to get worried. You should know, you build nuclear power plants FGS!

Sometimes when you get an exchanged you get another problem like keys not lined up, or led not working. You just did not notice it yet.

Like exchanging an LCD TV with one dead pixel for one with 10? It's a lottery.

Keys not lined up? One key is marginally higher than the rest on my CVP-509. It's tolerable.

Nikki

[JohnDiV]

Hi Nikki, it is normal to have keys slightly higher than others.

[RBmusic]

The connection of the AC and DC ground was on the regulator board not the amp. And they do it all the time . At some point the AC and DC grounds have to connect. However in this case they connected it once to many times on the Regulator board. The AC and DC ground is still connected on the board, has to be. But not were that added a trace to ground. Just a ground loop. Not an experiment, a valid fix. Also the hum was very low, I listened to other manufacturer and their Speakers had hum/hiss louder then the problem Yamaha had. Sometimes when you get an exchanged you get another problem like keys not lined up, or led not working. You just did not notice it yet.

Just my thoughts. PS no hum or hiss anymore.

The process problems are;
a) That it shouldn't have been possible BY DESIGN to connect grounds in more than one place. To me this indicates a lack of design discipline.
b) That it got to the customer level. This is more than a lack of serious bench testing.
Even with SIMPLE bench testing it would be a part of a normal test protocol to scope various points for ground ripple.
It shouldn't have to be HEARD, it can be measured.

Again, I m not familiar with the details of this board, but it is my understanding that it is essentially the same as the 40x, 30x series and perhaps a generation before that.
More and different voices, different signal processing, etc., but almost certainly the same board layout.
So how long has this "legacy" problem been in clavs ? and how did the tech just have it at his fingertips as THE instant fix ?

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Again, I m not familiar with the details of this board, but it is my understanding that it is essentially the same as the 40x, 30x series and perhaps a generation before that.
More and different voices, different signal processing, etc., but almost certainly the same board layout.
So how long has this "legacy" problem been in clavs ? and how did the tech just have it at his fingertips as THE instant fix ?
I remember this problem being mentioned on a 2xx years ago.

Yamaha is simply no longer the quality product it is supposed to be. And they are resting on their laurels riding the wave of previous reputation. And that upsets me.

It is still mostly a very good instrument though. Although I have two broken buttons, and now 5 broken keys - problems which started just after the warranty ran out, and which according to the salesman will be more expensive to fix than buying a new piano. I am not a happy customer. It is more and more becoming "Casio".

Brgds

Danny

[Nikki]

Hi Nikki, it is normal to have keys slightly higher than others, also the spacing between the keys can vary, as long as they do not rub against each other.

My friend has a steinway and his keys also vary slightly in height an spacing. It is about 20 years old. And that cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Good to hear. I just had a very close look at a reconditioned Yamaha U3. The keyboard follows a gentle sine wave. I hadn't noticed this in acoustics. My old Rhodes keyboard is completely flat, but then it's far less complex and has a spongy spring mechanism which has no ability to be altered.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

I read somewhere long ago, that the keyboards, even accoustics, are supposed to have this slight "sine wave". I just don't remember where or even why...

Brgds

Danny

[JohnDiV]

Danny I believe you may be right, although you do use yours a lot, and may I say you make Yamaha look good, I would ask Yamaha to repalce the keyboard it is only a 3 years old.

[ericho]

and now 5 broken keys - problems which started just after the warranty ran out, and which according to the salesman will be more expensive to fix than buying a new piano.

Ask the good man if the stuff in his head is gray or green and stinky ?????
Its about 3 hours work for a slow technician.
Replacing the keys and buttons is kids stuff.

Sadly your to far away, I would fix it for you free of charge and a cup of coffie.

I have no idea what a new wooden cvp key costs,
I usually buy used keys for the keybeds I repair
2 Weeks ago I took a Korg dw8000 apart with 28 non or badly working keys + 2 broken keys, (13,5€)
It took 5 hours to do 61 keys + aftertouch repair
Some pictures of the repair here : http://www.synthforum.be/forums/showthread.php?t=123645&highlight=dw8000
Its in dutch....sorry...;)

Kind regards

Eric

[hpeterh]

Hi!

I read somewhere long ago, that the keyboards, even accoustics, are supposed to have this slight "sine wave". I just don't remember where or even why...

Brgds

Danny

Thats because the hammers fall down to a felt that is about 10mm thick.
This felt is very soft and, as can be imagined, there are tolerances in the thickness and over the years they get compressed a little bit.
When a key is in rest, then its position is solely determinded by this soft and compressible felt.

So thats nothing dramatic. When this felt is bad, then the problem becomes worse and the keys become loud on release. If this happens replace the felt and everything is fine again.

Peter

[bigaxl]

Again, I m not familiar with the details of this board, but it is my understanding that it is essentially the same as the 40x, 30x series and perhaps a generation before that. More and different voices, different signal processing, etc., but almost certainly the same board layout.

I don´t know facts about the boardlayout, but the audiosection is a completely new design. Now it´s all pure digital ( amps, preamps, equalizing etc. ). But Class-D amplifiers are in the main more lowcoast then highend. Wendsday my 509 will be changed into an other new one...

[Nikki]

I'd appreciate it if someone could confirm whether this is the hum I hear as the result of the DC and AC grounds being connected.

Some (high-pitch) whine from the DV recorder's tape mechanism inadvertently recorded:
http://www.linfinita.co.uk/audio/CVP509Hum.mp3

Nikki

[RBmusic]

I'd appreciate it if someone could confirm whether this is the hum I hear as the result of the DC and AC grounds being connected.

Some (high-pitch) whine from the DV recorder's tape mechanism inadvertently recorded:
http://www.linfinita.co.uk/audio/CVP509Hum.mp3

Nikki

There is certainly 50 and 100 cycle hum there, although where it is coming from might depend on how you recorded it.
Kinda funny to hear again after being in the US for so long, where we hear 60 and 120 cycle hum (-:

[Nikki]

The recording was made with the microphone placed directly in front of one of the speakers pointing towards sitting position, touching the mesh.

[ericho]

Well,, I most certainly do not have this on my old cvp208

[RBmusic]

The recording was made with the microphone placed directly in front of one of the speakers pointing towards sitting position, touching the mesh.

What was the state/condition of the aquarium pump at the time of the recording ?
As I understand it aquarium pumps run continuously, unlike aquarium heaters that switch on and off.
Pumps are run by motors, which represent an inductive load, that could quite possibly put noise onto ground.
You MIGHT be able to reduce or eliminate the aquarium pump as a potential source by plugging it into a different outlet (wall socket).
Ummm, I'm forgetting how house wiring goes in the UK... do you have "ring mains" ?
I seem to remember those, but don't remember if they were the norm or were strictly against the wiring code (-:

[Nikki]

RBmusic,

The aquarium pump (15W) is on the same ring. However, unplugging the aquarium pumps makes no difference to the hum. Actually, there's also a little background hiss along with the hum with volume at 0.

Nikki

[ericho]

My cvp is not grounded

Its only connected to the 2 mains leads.

This could be different in other country's due to legislation

Audio equipment and ground connections are no friends, ground loops are annoying (hum)
Its made of wood... disconnect the stupid ground lead

my2c

Eric

[ericho]

a little background hiss along with the hum with volume at 0.



A little noise is normal, al electronic devices have a signal to noise ratio,
You should not hear it if you are not specifically looking for it

[JohnDiV]

Hi Nikki. That is the hum I had before they came out and fixed the unit. They cut a trace on a board (AC and DC ground). What is the date it was built? It will be on the label under the piano. It may say XZ09 or somthing to that effect. It wil be on the label with the serial number on it at the right hand side in middle of that label. I had another label that said 11 09( Novemeber 09). However I I ordered that unit in Decemeber 2, 09 and waited for 6 weeks and I did not get it untill January 26,2010.
Mine had XZ09.

It is not as loud as you recorded it but you may had the record level up.

[RBmusic]

RBmusic,

The aquarium pump (15W) is on the same ring. However, unplugging the aquarium pumps makes no difference to the hum. Actually, there's also a little background hiss along with the hum with volume at 0.

Nikki

With the volume at ZERO there should be no output, whether the source is external or internal.
With a "good" audio amp that has no input (I really mean a "grounded" input) you should be able to turn the volume up to maximum and not hear any output.

ANYTHING you can hear from an audio amp with a grounded input is generated internally, i.e. it is a design or component problem - which COULD be and SHOULD be fixed.
If you can amplify external noise then somehow you are picking it up, e.g. your input is acting as an antenna (ariel ?).
If there are unused microphone inputs it would be worth grounding those, at least as a diagnostic process to see if those are the souce of external noise.
I think CVPs have microphone inputs for Karaoke games and recording ?
I don't know if those jacks connect to ground when the mic plugs are removed - they SHOULD, although I would test for it rather than assume it.
Almost any DJ shop should be able to sell you a couple of grounding mic plugs, e.g. Guitar Center in the US.

[RBmusic]

BTW,
I believe a flute to be the closest instrument to a "pure" sine wave.
Concert Pitch is 440 Hz for the A above middle C, 220 an octave below that, 110 an octave below that, 55 Hz at 3 octaves below the A above middle C.

This is recognizably close to 50 or 60 cycle hum, so if you set your CVP to play a flute voice and sound that note it might beat against the hum - which will be ugly and annoying.
Well worth getting fixed.

[Nikki]

My cvp is not grounded

Its only connected to the 2 mains leads.

This could be different in other country's due to legislation

Audio equipment and ground connections are no friends, ground loops are annoying (hum)
Its made of wood... disconnect the stupid ground lead

my2c

Eric


I disconnected the ground on an extension lead and plugged that straight into the consumer unit, the point at which the mains is distributed throughout the house. I plugged the CVP into the extension lead. No difference to the hum. Is that a little strange? Sounds like it still needs to be disconnected on the PCB.

Nikki

Nikki

[Nikki]

Hi Nikki. That is the hum I had before they came out and fixed the unit. They cut a trace on a board (AC and DC ground). What is the date it was built? It will be on the label under the piano. It may say XZ09 or somthing to that effect. It wil be on the label with the serial number on it at the right hand side in middle of that label. I had another label that said 11 09( Novemeber 09). However I I ordered that unit in Decemeber 2, 09 and waited for 6 weeks and I did not get it untill January 26,2010.
Mine had XZ09.

It is not as loud as you recorded it but you may had the record level up.

The AG on the video recorder would have been on.

I cannot find any printed unique numbers except for the serial number BCPX010##. Only one label.

Do you think cutting the trace will solve the hum? I disconnected the ground from the plug and that made no difference. I presume the mains hum is being transferring through the connected ground regardless?

Nikki

[JohnDiV]

Hi Nikki, I went through the same thing. I had disconneted everything in the house that was 120 VAC (USA). My Serial Number is UCPY010##. I live in the USA and have the USA model, so the serial number's fisrt letter my be different. On thet same label on the right hand side I have a YZ09 stamped. I know the model was made late last year. The store I bought it from just got a couple of new ones in made in January. I will be there today and I will listen. I will bring my sound pressure meter. Just in case my ears don't work to good today, my meter is calibarted and will display the readings.
I have readings from the unit that had the hum before the fix.

I would call Yamaha Service and have them send someone to ear and fix it. They will, they know some units have this problem. It is 20 min fix. If that does not fix it , you want a new Unit.

John

[ericho]

Is that a little strange? Sounds like it still needs to be disconnected on the PCB.


No Nikki, its not strange, it's easier to design something that hums than something that doesn't hum

So No loop in the ground, design flaw,,, it needs a hardware fix (disconnect or cut a trace in this case)

Its no big deal as long as they do it for free, :rolleyes:

;)

[JohnDiV]

Well, I went to the piano store and they had 2 new CVP 509's and some CVP 505's and under. I was curious if they had the hum like mine did before they fixed mine. Well here it is. Both CVP 509's had the hum and the CVP 505s and under did not. I said something to the store salesperson who sold me mine, and who is just a great salespersons and a musician, and he heard the hum after I showed him were to listen and said that is not right. I keep in touch with the salesperson who is now a good friend of mine and they had them noth fixed. A 20 min job. I wonder when Yamaha will be issuing something to the dealers or are they just going to fix them on the assembly line until they re-layout the board. It is a low hum and most people may never notice it. Maybe that is why Yamaha is letting it slide and fixes them only when someone complains about it.

Anyway the fix does work. I was just curious. So all 3 CVP 509s that I heard in my life have the issue and they were manufactured at different months and years 2009/2010.

[Nikki]

JohnDiV,

I have now spoken to Yamaha. I got an immediate response from Yamaha. I'm impressed. I spoke to the engineer. They cannot yet book a time to do the fix. They say it isn't just cutting a trace. They also need to remount the transformer and they don't have the part in this country yet to do that and are waiting for the shipment to arrive. How would mounting be an issue?

[JohnDiV]

Hi Nikki,
I am not sure about the transformer. The cutting of the trace is all that they are doing in the US for the electrically induced hum due to the inadvertent AC and DC ground connection. However, it is possible they know of a transformer hum which is a mechanical hum (vibrating). Maybe the transformer may be to close to the amplifiers and the electromagnetic field (EMI) is being picked up by the amp. It is possible that the mounting of the transformer for the US and European models may be different due to size and location of the transformer. Your transformer runs at 240VAC at 50 cycles. They would put rubber standoffs of some type on the transformer's mounting if it is for a hum due to vibration from the transformer. I am only guessing.

They will fix it and you will be happy.

John

[Encino_Stan]

Well, I went to the piano store and they had 2 new CVP 509's and some CVP 505's and under. I was curious if they had the hum like mine did before they fixed mine. Well here it is. Both CVP 509's had the hum and the CVP 505s and under did not.

John,
According to the specs in the manual, the 505 and 503 has 2 amps and 4 speakers, whereas the 509 has 8 amps and 8 speakers. Perhaps the difference in electronics makes the difference in the hum you are experiencing.

I am expecting my CVP-509PE to be delivered this Saturday morning. Can you tell me exactly where to listen for the hum? Does the volume on the piano affect the hum? Can you hear it even with volume at zero?

Thanks,
Stan

[JohnDiV]

The problem is with the 509s.

The fix is easy. What I heard when I get close to the lower woofer speaker, the one second from either end, not the new sub woofers in the middle of the piano, I heard a faint 60 cycle hum. 50 Cycle hum for European models. It is not loud and can't be heard at the sitting position and in a quite room. But when you are down under the keyboard you will here it. You should only hear an open noise sound very very faint (SHAAA).

They came, they cut a trace and its is gone.

If I did not drop something under the piano and had my ear about a foot away from the speaker I might not have heard it. But it is not right.

Good luck. Maybe the newer ones made in Feb or March maybe fixed.

John

[JoeM]

I decided to check my CVP 307 and it also has a hum. I am wondering if I should call Yamaha, afterall I purchased the CVP over 3 years ago. One reason I never heard it before is because I have 2 computers in the same room and at least one of them is on.

[JohnDiV]

Joe, the problem was not with the 309. I have had the 309,409 and 509. Only the 509 have the hum problem. It has new amps and added speakers. I would not worry if i were you.

John

[RBmusic]

What has not been discussed here yet is the differences between 50 and 60 cycles.
(OK smart guys, we know one answer is 10).
It is at least POSSIBLE that there is not a 50 cycle hum, i.e. UK owners might be looking/listening for something that doesn't exist.

Not to beat on Yamaha; they SHOULD design, develop and test for 47 to 63, but I believe Japan to be on 50 cycles and it is possible that they have selected a transformer that resonates at 60 cycles but is just FINE at 50 (or so).

This would be separate from a ground loop issue, at least in the electrical sense.
It would still be coupled to that problem as a lack of design, development, test discipline issue.

[JohnDiV]

Below is a list of most countries with their voltages and frequencies used. The use of 60 HZ is the minority of countries. The first hum heard from a 509 was on a 50 HZ unit at 230 volts in Germany. All 509 have it if you listen for it and they are fixing it. The transformers are quite different I assure you when they are configured to the respected voltage and frequency. The regulators for the voltages for the amps and logic are the same for the most part.

In summary the voltage and frequency of AC electricity varies from country to country throughout the world. Most use 220V and 50Hz. About 20% of the countries use 110V and/or 60Hz to power their homes. 220V and 60Hz are the most efficient values, but only a few countries use that combination. The United States uses 110V and 60Hz AC electricity.


Afghanistan 220V 50Hz
Albania 230V 50Hz
Algeria 230V 50Hz
American Samoa 120V 60Hz
Andorra 230V 50Hz
Angola 220V 50Hz
Anguilla 110V 60Hz
Antigua 230V 60Hz
Argentina 220V 50Hz
Armenia 230V 50Hz
Aruba 127V 60Hz
Australia 240V 50Hz
Austria 230V 50Hz
Azerbaijan 220V 50Hz
Azores 230V 50Hz
Bahamas 120V 60Hz
Bahrain 230V 50Hz
Balearic Islands 230V 50Hz
Bangladesh 220V 50Hz
Barbados 115V 50Hz
Belarus 230V 50Hz
Belgium 230V 50Hz
Belize 110/220V 60Hz
Benin 220V 50Hz
Bermuda 120V 60Hz
Bhutan 230V 50Hz
Bolivia 230V 50Hz
Bosnia 230V 50Hz
Botswana 230V 50Hz
Brazil 110-220V 60Hz
Brunei 240V 50Hz
Bulgaria 230V 50Hz
Burkina Faso 220V 50Hz
Burundi 220V 50Hz
Cambodia 230V 50Hz
Cameroon 220V 50Hz
Canada 120V 60Hz
Canary Islands 230V 50Hz
Cape Verde 230V 50Hz
Cayman Islands 120V 60Hz
Central Africa 220V 50Hz
Chad 220V 50Hz
Channel Islands 230V 50Hz
Chile 220V 50Hz
China 220V 50Hz
Colombia 110V 60Hz
Comoros 220V 50Hz
Congo (Zaire) 220V 50Hz
Cook Islands 240V 50Hz
Costa Rica 120V 60Hz
Côte d'Ivoire
(Ivory Coast) 220V 50Hz
Croatia 230V 50Hz
Cuba 110/220V 60Hz
Cyprus 230V 50Hz
Czech Republic 230V 50Hz
Denmark 230V 50Hz
Djibouti 220V 50Hz
Dominica 230V 50Hz
Dominican Republic 110V 60Hz
East Timor 220V 50Hz
Ecuador 127V 60Hz
Egypt 220V 50Hz
El Salvador 115V 60Hz
Equatorial Guinea 220V 50Hz
Eritrea 230V 50Hz
Estonia 230V 50Hz
Ethiopia 220V 50Hz
Faeroe Islands 230V 50Hz
Falkland Islands 240V 50Hz
Fiji 240V 50Hz
Finland 230V 50Hz
France 230V 50Hz
French Guyana 220V 50Hz
Gaza 230V 50Hz
Gabon 220V 50Hz
Gambia 230V 50Hz
Germany 230V 50Hz
Ghana 230V 50Hz
Gibraltar 230V 50Hz
Greece 230V 50Hz
Greenland 230V 50Hz
Grenada 230V 50Hz
Guadeloupe 230V 50Hz
Guam 110V 60Hz
Guatemala 120V 60Hz
Guinea 220V 50Hz
Guinea-Bissau 220V 50Hz
Guyana 240V 60Hz
Haiti 110V 60Hz
Honduras 110V 60Hz
Hong Kong 220V 50Hz
Hungary 230V 50Hz
Iceland 230V 50Hz
India 240V 50Hz
Indonesia 230V 50Hz
Iran 230V 50Hz
Iraq 230V 50Hz
Ireland (Eire) 230V 50Hz
Isle of Man 230V 50Hz
Israel 230V 50Hz
Italy 230V 50Hz
Jamaica 110V 50Hz
Japan 100V 50/60Hz
Jordan 230V 50Hz
Kenya 240V 50Hz
Kazakhstan 220V 50Hz
Country Voltage Frequency.
Kiribati 240V 50Hz
Korea, South 220V 60Hz
Kuwait 240V 50Hz
Kyrgyzstan 220V 50Hz
Laos 230V 50Hz
Latvia 230V 50Hz
Lebanon 230V 50Hz
Lesotho 220V 50Hz
Liberia 120V 60Hz
Libya 127/230V 50Hz
Lithuania 230V 50Hz
Liechtenstein 230V 50Hz
Luxembourg 230V 50Hz
Macau 220V 50Hz
Macedonia 230V 50Hz
Madagascar 127/220V 50Hz
Madeira 230V 50Hz
Malawi 230V 50Hz
Malaysia 240V 50Hz
Maldives 230V 50Hz
Mali 220V 50Hz
Malta 230V 50Hz
Martinique 220V 50Hz
Mauritania 220V 50Hz
Mauritius 230V 50Hz
Mexico 127V 60Hz
Micronesia 120V 60Hz
Moldova 230V 50Hz
Monaco 230V 50Hz
Mongolia 230V 50Hz
Montserrat Islands 230V 60Hz
Morocco 220V 50Hz
Mozambique 220V 50Hz
Myanmar (Burma) 230V 50Hz
Namibia 220V 50Hz
Nauru 240V 50Hz
Nepal 230V 50Hz
Netherlands 230V 50Hz
Netherlands Antilles 127/220V 50Hz
New Caledonia 220V 50Hz
New Zealand 230V 50Hz
Nicaragua 120V 60Hz
Niger 220V 50Hz
Nigeria 240V 50Hz
Norway 230V 50Hz
Okinawa 100V 60Hz
Oman 240V 50Hz
Pakistan 230V 50Hz
Palmyra Atoll 120V 60Hz
Panama 110V 60Hz
Papua New Guinea 240V 50Hz
Paraguay 220V 50Hz
Peru 220V 60Hz
Philippines 220V 60Hz
Poland 230V 50Hz
Portugal 230V 50Hz
Puerto Rico 120V 60Hz
Qatar 240V 50Hz
Réunion Island 230V 50Hz
Romania 230V 50Hz
Russian Federation 230V 50Hz
Rwanda 230V 50Hz
St. Kitts & Nevis Islands 230V 60Hz
St. Lucia Island 240V 50Hz
St. Vincent Island 230V 50Hz
Saudi Arabia 127/220V 60Hz
Senegal 230V 50Hz
Serbia & Montenegro 230V 50Hz
Seychelles 240V 50Hz
Sierra Leone 230V 50Hz
Singapore 230V 50Hz
Slovakia 230V 50Hz
Slovenia 230V 50Hz
Somalia 220V 50Hz
South Africa 230V 50Hz
Spain 230V 50Hz
Sri Lanka 230V 50Hz
Sudan 230V 50Hz
Suriname 127V 60Hz
Swaziland 230V 50Hz
Sweden 230V 50Hz
Switzerland 230V 50Hz
Syria 220V 50Hz
Tahiti 110/220V 60Hz
Tajikistan 220V 50Hz
Taiwan 110V 60Hz
Tanzania 230V 50Hz
Thailand 220V 50Hz
Togo 220V 50Hz
Tonga 240V 50Hz
Trinidad & Tobago 115V 60Hz
Tunisia 230V 50Hz
Turkey 230V 50Hz
Turkmenistan 220V 50Hz
Uganda 240V 50Hz
Ukraine 230V 50Hz
United Arab Emirates 220V 50Hz
United Kingdom 230V 50Hz
United States 110/220V 60Hz
Uruguay 220V 50Hz
Uzbekistan 220V 50Hz
Venezuela 120V 60Hz
Vietnam 220V 50Hz
Virgin Islands 110V 60Hz
Western Samoa 230V 50Hz
Yemen 230V 50Hz
Zambia 230V 50Hz
Zimbabwe 220V 50Hz



John

[RBmusic]

A possible conclusion from that is that Yamaha does not even have (or doesn't follow) the development process to avoid these problems in ANY country's power system, i.e. it is not just a design bug peculiar to a minority market that got through their system, but a systemic development problem.

BTW, the mere count of countries by power type is not meaningful.
The target demographic is where there is sufficient potential sales volume for these luxury items - and lets face it, these ARE luxury consumer items.

I would guess that USA and Western Europe account for well over 80% of the potential market and the problem is in both.
Counting countries where having power at all is for only an hour or two a day doesn't make a case for optimizing products like this for those locations.

[JohnDiV]

I was just trying to educate you there are more 50HZ than 60 HZ. Stop trying to talk yourself at of buying a CVP. I heard others (Competition ) which had louder HUMS. I design transformer, regulators, PLC logic and arrays, digital logic an I am Nuclear Engineer besides being a Lead Auditor ISO cert and Nuclear cert. I know what it takes to design a product. I believe you are only guessing. The SN ratio was acceptable for the CVP, but for those who hear the hum they came and fix (Impoved) it. Did you hear the HUM? If not then I will say no more more to you since you are only guessing. You have not been in the real engineering world. Nothing is perfect and if it meets the standard it goes as a final product. I believe I will block you and you nonsense on what companies should do. If you do design please forward me your methods with codes and standards and also copy Yamaha and let them in on you knowledge base.

Just remember this is the digital piano best there is. You are louder than the hum I heard on the CVP or any device for that matter.

Good luck on your new career on designing CVPs

[RBmusic]

I was just trying to educate you there are more 50HZ than 60 HZ. Stop trying to talk yourself at of buying a CVP. I heard others (Competition ) which had louder HUMS. I design transformer, regulators, PLC logic and arrays, digital logic an I am Nuclear Engineer besides being a Lead Auditor ISO cert and Nuclear cert. I know what it takes to design a product. I believe you are only guessing. The SN ratio was acceptable for the CVP, but for those who hear the hum they came and fix (Impoved) it. Did you hear the HUM? If not then I will say no more more to you since you are only guessing. You have not been in the real engineering world. Nothing is perfect and if it meets the standard it goes as a final product. I believe I will block you and you nonsense on what companies should do. If you do design please forward me your methods with codes and standards and also copy Yamaha and let them in on you knowledge base.

Just remember this is the digital piano best there is. You are louder than the hum I heard on the CVP or any device for that matter.

Good luck on your new career on designing CVPs

Thanks, but I am not in need of "education" by you.
I have lived and worked in several of those countries with 50 Hz power, as well as the US.
There is no need to be offensive about it.
Your credentials aren't in question here, neither are mine, Yamaha's ARE.
There is no need to be defensive about it either, I really DO understand your buyer's remorse. It would be HARD for you to admit that you have spent a lot of money on an item from a company with such obvious evidence of a poor design/development process, I understand that.

By analogy; I don't need to be an expert chef, or even a gourmet to judge that what is served on a plate is poor quality and/or poor value.
I don't need to know if it is because the regular chef has the night off, whether they have run short of a particular ingredient, or whatever other reason there MIGHT be for the food not meeting my expectation - although I can GUESS and probably would.

The "real engineering world" that I have been employed in does NOT depend on it's customer base to find low level problems like this in an incidental way.

I really HOPE that the nuclear industry doesn't either, although your mindset seems to indicate that it might - but of course I am only guessing based on what you wrote.

I'm done with this thread.

[JohnDiV]

RB I am not offended and your point is well taken.

The Nuclear industry is very safe. Yamaha does not build nuclear reactors so I do not expect them to be perfect. I am very happy with the Piano, all three CVPs from Yamaha. As long as a company makes good for their mistakes ( in this case the hum which was acceptable per the SN ratio spec) that is what really counts. Please remember only a few people heard it since most of the owners are not sensitive to the hum which is only heard if you put your ear about 6 inches from the bottom speaker and the room is dead silent. Believe me, if I thought that Yamaha had a real quality issue I would have returned it in a heart beat and got my money back. I have done it to other products like Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Martin Logan, Polk Audio an so on. So I am very picky.

I am not siding with Yamaha. And yes you are right, a company should not depend on the consumer to identify problems when there is one.

Anyway, it is all a matter of perspective and we all have our opinions and I respect yours.

[RBmusic]

RB I am not offended and your point is well taken.

The Nuclear industry is very safe. Yamaha does not build nuclear reactors so I do not expect them to be perfect. I am very happy with the Piano, all three CVPs from Yamaha. As long as a company makes good for their mistakes ( in this case the hum which was acceptable per the SN ratio spec) that is what really counts. Please remember only a few people heard it since most of the owners are not sensitive to the hum which is only heard if you put your ear about 6 inches from the bottom speaker and the room is dead silent. Believe me, if I thought that Yamaha had a real quality issue I would have returned it in a heart beat and got my money back. I have done it to other products like Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Martin Logan, Polk Audio an so on. So I am very picky.

I am not siding with Yamaha. And yes you are right, a company should not depend on the consumer to identify problems when there is one.

Anyway, it is all a matter of perspective and we all have our opinions and I respect yours.

I think we can agree that this is largely about opinions and perspectives.
I certainly respect yours.

Many years ago I made some significant career reputation clearing up systems integration problems in similar areas.
Digital noise on analog power supply lines, ground loops, ground paths that were just fine for DC but high impedance for RF, etc.
I was NOT in a good position one time when a Swedish hospital offered me use of their very clean "patient ground" - I declined (-:
From some of those case histories I was able to improve the design/development process to preclude recurrences.
Some of this was in the form of design rules, but the most significant part was in the design/development discipline.

So I am more than a little bit sensitive to things like this and do tend to jump on what I see as symptoms of sloppy design/development.
How "perfect" circuit design (including power and ground distribution) needs to be for consumer & home electronics is debatable.

My OPINION is that near perfection can be obtained with the implementation of a fairly small and simple set of design rules, most of which can be implemented in such tools as printed circuit layout and path routing software. CAD/CAM.
It should never get as far as a customer "listening test", even if only those with 'golden ears' would be able to hear it.

[JohnDiV]

Glad we still can talk not meant to be an argument.

I really would like to here no noise from any speaker or system. Some are very good, and some are just OK. My ears are old but although my highs are disappearing with age I am sensitive to low frequency hums. To many years at the power plant. :). I think they are all staring to use cheaper parts with wider specs to decrease cost. Also, I just found out that some of Yamaha products are now being made in China including the Pianos (no surprise). China is not known to be Quality conscience. I know our company worked shared engineering with China and it did not work out very well. Had to redo the work most of the time.

I had just bought a Samsung LED back light /LCD TV 8500 series, I got lucky (As Usual) and had an LED array go out in one week. That was an ugly picture. They replace it but now I am always waiting for the same thing to happen again on the new one.

Some recent development. Between you and me I did give Yamaha hell about the hum and that since I heard it on all the 509s I listened to I told them to recall them before they get to the customer. They told that it was probably just my unit. But they had a fix. I told them if they had a fix then they know there is a problem. They did not answer me. They came out and fixed it by cutting a trace. Then I called them and told them I did not like the feel on one of the keys, like it was rubbing. They did make good for it and replaced the piano. The new piano has no hum. I bet they cut the trace before they got it to me instead of relaying out / redesigning the circuit. The rubbing key thing I just got very very picky about it just to add some gas to the fire about their product they are sending out. My friend just got a 509 and he said he did not hear a hum so I went to his house and guess what, I heard the hum. Now he hears it when he put his head down. Maybe I am just nuts but I hate hums even when they are low in volume.



John

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Now he hears it when he put his head down. Maybe I am just nuts but I hate hums even when they are low in volume.
You are guilty of crying wolf as well then (you accused the poster to be trying to talk himself out of a purchase)... If you don't hear it, it is not a problem. "What you don't know doesn't hurt you."

If you put your head down, and your nuts are humming, you have a problem. (Sorry, couldn't resist the pun :rolleyes: )

Brgds

Danny

[RBmusic]

Glad we still can talk not meant to be an argument.

I really would like to here no noise from any speaker or system. Some are very good, and some are just OK. My ears are old but although my highs are disappearing with age I am sensitive to low frequency hums. To many years at the power plant. :). I think they are all staring to use cheaper parts with wider specs to decrease cost. Also, I just found out that some of Yamaha products are now being made in China including the Pianos (no surprise). China is not known to be Quality conscience. I know our company worked shared engineering with China and it did not work out very well. Had to redo the work most of the time.

I had just bought a Samsung LED back light /LCD TV 8500 series, I got lucky (As Usual) and had an LED array go out in one week. That was an ugly picture. They replace it but now I am always waiting for the same thing to happen again on the new one.

Some recent development. Between you and me I did give Yamaha hell about the hum and that since I heard it on all the 509s I listened to I told them to recall them before they get to the customer. They told that it was probably just my unit. But they had a fix. I told them if they had a fix then they know there is a problem. They did not answer me. They came out and fixed it by cutting a trace. Then I called them and told them I did not like the feel on one of the keys, like it was rubbing. They did make good for it and replaced the piano. The new piano has no hum. I bet they cut the trace before they got it to me instead of relaying out / redesigning the circuit. The rubbing key thing I just got very very picky about it just to add some gas to the fire about their product they are sending out. My friend just got a 509 and he said he did not hear a hum so I went to his house and guess what, I heard the hum. Now he hears it when he put his head down. Maybe I am just nuts but I hate hums even when they are low in volume.



John

re: Made (or assembled) in China;
I have memories of moving some of our production from Massachusetts to Puerto Rico (-:
Basic Edwards Demming rules, develop the process to not produce defects FIRST !
Once the PROCESS is mature it doesn't need to be expertise intense, i.e. no defects to fix, no re-work.
...and of course the process HAS TO BE mature BEFORE it is outsourced to an expertise poor location - that bit seems to have been forgotten in a lot of the "have it produced in China" trend.
It isn't new; Mexico, S. Korea, Spain, etc have all had manufacturing move in for cheaper labor, but process maturity has been dropped in all too many cases.

[JohnDiV]

That was a good one. They are tuned to the left of middle C.

After I thought about the hum issue then the key problem, then I heard the hum on all the 509s (4 of them) RB is right. I was defending Yamaha on maybe one or two instances of the problem but it was in all the 509s. The 409 and 309 are clean. I proved this to the salesman in the store and the Yamaha Tech in California as I told the all to stick their head down and listen (Danny I know you are tempted to comment on that statement). So it is inherent to the 509 model.
I believe Yamaha thinks that is is case by case issue, like you said if you don't hear it, it is not there.
My ears have enough ringing in them due to old age I do not need added low level hums.

Danny Yamaha statement about minimum warranty, tell them to stick their head down there too. Have you looked at any of Roland products? They do have Digital Grands and lots of them.

I am going back to playing my accordian I know that does not hum. When it is laying down it does not make a sound.



John;)

[JohnDiV]

RB

Yes , it seems as we grow as a global economy we are now becoming all the same in built and quality. We are running out of third world countries.

I am afraid that the days of commercial built quality and even industrial is becoming weak. Do more with less attitude. There was a time when the quality and design in products made good competitive market and it meant something.

It comes down to what is the bottom line now. Unfortunately the consumer ends up suffering for it.



John

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Danny Yamaha statement about minimum warranty, tell them to stick their head down there too. Have you looked at any of Roland products? They do have Digital Grands and lots of them.

LOL!

Rolands aren't as feature rich. Most importantly, they don't do multi-track recording as far as I can tell. You don't want me to stop recording do you?

Brgds

Danny

[JohnDiV]

I know what you mean. Are there any others out there that are like Yamaha?

The Roland KR-117M has 5/16track recording (top of the line). It looks nice, I never heard it and do not know the price. A link below is were I found all their products. At one time they were the number one here in USA, then Yamaha started their digital pianos.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=778&ParentId=21


I just want someone who can provide competition to Yamaha that is compatable with ther CVP line so that Yamaha can respect there customers a little better.

I do not want you to stop recording. I believe all of us want you to continue.

Are you looking to buy a new Didgital Piano Danny?

John

[dbjorck]

Hi!

I'm not actively looking for a new piano, but I'm keeping an open mind for the competition, as Yamaha appears to give up on its customers, and I really don't feel appreciated by them.

That model I did not see on the international Roland site. The best I could find there was a model which could hold only one single song in user memory, and had 3 track recording. That they write 5 track/16 track recording on this without explaining the 5 and 16 makes me a bit weary though. Sounds a bit like market-speak. Perhaps only 5 for recording, but 16 for playback?

Brgds

Danny

[JohnDiV]

Danny beloe are the specs. I am looking f or the manual.

Link to the manual http://media.rolandus.com/manuals/KR-117_115_OM.pdf

KR-117M: Digital Intelligent Grand Player Piano Roland’s flagship digital grand with moving keys
Features

The KR-117M Intelligent Grand Piano combines all the realism of a fine acoustic piano with functionality available only from the world’s best digital pianos. From its exquisite polished ebony cabinet to its expressive grand piano sound, powerful speaker system, and assortment of vocal and instrument sounds, this instrument combines a grand piano with modern, flexible features.

“Player piano” with moving keys and CD drive
Optional wireless system, makes controller communication with computer or PDA possible
Large color LCD touchscreen (320 x 240)
Remote Controller
External VGA/TV display connector
DigiScore™ music, lyric, chord, and fingering display
Wonderland interactive music games
Visual Lesson Education Suite
A/V Sync and Slide Show
Infrared data transfer
High-quality, 8-speaker sound system
Visit VIMATunes.com Visit WebOnlyPiano.com Roland Digital Grand Pianos
Roland’s flagship digital grand with moving keys
More Info
88-key Solid Progressive Hammer-Action Keyboard with Escapement and “Natural Look Effect” keys
128-voice polyphony
88-note multi-sampled piano sound with “key-off” and resonance effects
780 tones (including 8 tone wheel organs, 17 drum kits, 1 SFX set)
Reverb, chorus, rotary, and 60 other effects, plus advanced 3D sound and Dynamic Emphasis
310 internal styles with Visual Arranger
570 Music Assistant titles with Visual Music Assistant (compatible with Hal Leonard books # 57 & 200)
70W x 2 (20cm. + 5cm.) + 70W x 2 (16cm. + 8cm.) speaker system
XLR audio out
USB-MIDI & 2 USB external memory ports
Over 190 internal songs
Polished ebony finish
Roland’s flagship digital grand with moving keys

Specs
Keyboard Keyboard
88 keys (Solid Progressive Hammer-Action Keyboard with Escapement), Automatic Keyboard Movement, Wood-tone sides
Touch Sensitivity
100 levels
Keyboard Modes
Whole, Split (adjustable split point), Layer, Arranger, Piano Style Arranger, Manual Drums / SFX
Sound Generator (Conforms to GM2 / GS / XG Lite) Max. Polyphony
128 voices
Tones
6 groups 780 variations (including 8 tone wheeel Organs, 17 drum sets, SFX set)
Temperament
8 types, selectable tonic
Transposition
Key Transpose (-6 to +5 in units of semitone), Playback Transpose (-24 to +24 in units of semitone)
Effects
Reverb (12 types, 127 levels), Chorus, Rotary and 60 other types, Surround, Advanced 3D, Dynamic Emphasis (3 types), Equalizer (5 bands, Master level)
Arranger Music Styles
6 groups 310 styles x 3 types (Style Orchestrator)
Music Assistant
Over 550 sets x 6 presets, Visual Music Assistant
Programmable Music Styles
Style Converter, Style Composer
Melody Intelligence
24 types
User Programs
Internal: 36, External Memory: max. 99 sets
Metronome Tempo
Quarter note = 10 to 500
Beat
2/2, 0/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4, 3/8, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8
Volume
10 levels
Metronome Pattern
11 patterns
Metronome Sound
8 types

Composer Tracks
5 tracks / 16 tracks
Recording Method
Realtime (Replace, Mix, Auto Punch In, Manual Punch In, Loop, Tempo), Step (Chord Sequencer), Beat Map
Edit
Copy, Quantize, Delete, Insert, Erase, Transpose, Part Exchange, Note Edit, PC Edit

Other Functions
Touch the Notes, Replay Pedal, Super Tones, Piano Designer, Visual Lesson, Wonderland/Game, Demo, Tone Audition, Panel Lock, User Image Display, BMP Export, V-LINK, IR function, Slide Show, A/V Sync Output/Input
External Storage (USB Flash Memory) Playable Software
Song: Standard MIDI Files (Format 0/1), Roland Original Format (i-Format), Music Style: MSA, MSD, MSE, Audio File: WAV Format (44.1 kHz 16 bits linear, stereo)
Save
Song: Standard MIDI Files (Format 0), Roland Original Format (i-Format), Music Style: MSE
Internal Memory Internal Songs
Over 190 songs
User Memory
Max. 200 songs on Favorites, Max. 99 User Styles, Max. 70 User Program Sets, User Image (Internal x 1, External x 1)
Others DigiScore: Score Display
Grand staff / G Clef staff / F Clef staff, with note name / lyrics / chords / fingering
Display
Bouncing Beat Indicator, Graphical Color LCD 320 x 240 dot (backlit LCD)
Lylics
Yes (bulit-in, external display, MIDI output)
Language
English / Japanese / German / French / Spanish
Vocal Effects
Echo, Voice Transformer, Vocal Keyboard, Harmonist
One Touch Program
One Touch Piano, One Touch Arranger
Pedals
Damper Pedal (half-pedal recognition), Soft Pedal (half-pedal recognition, functions assignable), Sostenuto Pedal (functions assignable)
Connector
USB memory connector, FDD connector, Main Output jacks (L/Mono, R), Balanced Output jacks (L, R)(XLR, Level Fixed), Aux Output jacks (L/Mono, R), Input jacks (L/Mono, R), Aux Input jacks (L, R), Mic Input jack, Headphones jack (Stereo) x 2, MIDI In connector x 2, MIDI out connector, USB connector, Ext Display connector (15-pin D-Sub type), Video Out jack, Expression Pedal jack, Serial connector
Rated Power Output
70 W x 4
Speakers
20 cm x 2, 16 cm x 2, 8 cm x 2, 5 cm x 2
Power Supply
AC 115 V, AC 117 V, AC 220 V, AC 230 V, AC 240 V (50/60 Hz)
Power Consumption
360 W
Accessories
Quick Start, Owner's Manual, Roland 60 Classical Piano Masterpieces, Remote Control, Dry-cell Batteries, USB Installation Guide, CD-ROM (Roland Digital Piano USB Driver), Power Cord, Anti-theft lock screws, Maintenace Kit, Key Cover, Caster Cup, CD (Music Data Disc with vocals)
Options
USB Flash Memory (M-UF128), Floppy Disk Drive (FD-01A), CF/CD Recorder (CD-2)
Size and Weight ( with lid closed ) Width
1,503 mm
59-3/16 inches
Depth
1,579 mm
62-3/16 inches
Height
1,007 mm
39-11/16 inches
Weight
240.0 kg
529 lbs. 2 oz.
(including the caster cup)
Size and Weight ( with lid open ) Width
1,503 mm
59-3/16 inches
Depth
1,579 mm
62-3/16 inches
Height
1,741 mm
68-9/16 inches
Weight
240.0 kg
529 lbs. 2 oz.
(including the caster cup)
*The specifications are subject to change without notice.

JOhn wish you were close by so we can talk.

;-)

[RBmusic]

Wow, Big Fat List of features.
Feature encrusted ?
or Feature Encumbered ? (-:

I have been watching and hoping for a (relatively) high quality and bug free CVP x09 since about the 200 series.
Every new generation disappoints me in some way, the bugs reported HERE and in usenet groups have been major purchase stoppers for me.

I don't think the CVP 609 will be any more bug free than the 309 was and by the time the 709 comes out (IF it ever does) virtual soft instruments will dominate the home market AS WELL AS the semi-pro and studio markets.
Laptops are cheap, many of us replace them every year or two anyway and Moore's Law continues unabated.
I am still running modular instruments and right now taking a very hard look at Pianoteq 3 pro (under $500).

Other than the guide lights I don't see any point in having the furniture, Oops ,there are midi keyboards with weighted action and guide lights, so if I needed those I could have that capability without the $nK premium.

I guess I talked myself out of it AGAIN !

[ericho]

Laptops are cheap, many of us replace them every year or two anyway and Moore's Law continues unabated.
I am still running modular instruments and right now taking a very hard look at Pianoteq 3 pro (under $500).



Cheap hé ???? :rolleyes:
New laptop every 2 years + new software every 4 years + new audio / midi interfaces every 4 years

Never experienced trouble with drivers for your hardware ???

Most of our member just want to switch it on and play, have top quality that lasts at least 20 years.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Wow, Big Fat List of features.
Feature encrusted ?
or Feature Encumbered ? (-:

Nope, there's several things I'm missing from the list (like true 16 channel recording, special voices like the Yamaha Mega or Articulation). But then there are things it has I'm missing from the Yamaha (like WiFi, and the moving keys is cool). The rest is much the same. Both are missing loads of functionalities I would like to see (you can read about most of them in the Wishlist forum)

I have been watching and hoping for a (relatively) high quality and bug free CVP x09 since about the 200 series.
Every new generation disappoints me in some way, the bugs reported HERE and in usenet groups have been major purchase stoppers for me.

Then you'll be waiting for ever. As a programmer I can promise you bugs never go away. I consider the 309 to be relatively high quality, in spite of some random problems. And you're forgetting that people only write when they have problems; never when everything is fine. Someone will always have a problem. Show me a PC running softwares where not a single person has posted some form of problem on the net.

I don't think the CVP 609 will be any more bug free than the 309 was and by the time the 709 comes out (IF it ever does) virtual soft instruments will dominate the home market AS WELL AS the semi-pro and studio markets.

It is clear you are barking up the wrong tree. Apparently you feel drawn to a keyboard, and you're searching for an excuse to have one. But what you really want, and need, is to work on the PC. That is fine; there are different ways to work with music, some find some ways preferable, others prefer others. I have done both, and prefer to have an actual standalone instrument - which includes both the furniture aspect, and the "standalone, all-in-one, virus-free, minimum-upgrade" aspect. I do use the PC for heavy scoring though, such as major composing. But sitting at a piano and working really with my own hands, is what makes me happy. Standalone instruments will not go away. Just like bicycles didn't go away when cars arrived on the scene. It's two different experiences.

Brgds

Danny

[RBmusic]

Cheap hé ???? :rolleyes:
New laptop every 2 years + new software every 4 years + new audio / midi interfaces every 4 years

Never experienced trouble with drivers for your hardware ???

Most of our member just want to switch it on and play, have top quality that lasts at least 20 years.

New laptops every couple or three years - Yes.
Yes anyway, regardless of my music pastime.
New office and other utility software - Yes, but Office 2010 for example is still beta and "free". Again, this is independent of any music use.
New audio interface - after about 20 years - Yes, FINALLY going to a USB combination MIDI and analogue out to my keyboard amp, for about $165.
Primarily because laptops don't have the old type serial bus any longer.

Drivers aren't THAT much of a problem, a setting here, a question on a usenet group there, maybe a question back to the manufacturer.
Not the sort of problems I see HERE with folk trying to get support from the single source Y-word company.

The "Top quality that lasts for 20 years" is in fact barely current by the time you buy it. It remains where it was for 20 years, still just as good as the day you bought it, but improvements DO pass you by.
Did I miss something ?
Are there FREE upgrade/update software patches to bring 309s and 409s up to 509 ? (or 509.2.1.3 ?).
Do they send you ram expansion kits ?
Did you get one to expand from 4 Meg to 4 Gig ?
Sample space MATTERS !

I'm trying to remember what the state of the art was 20 years ago...
DX7s were popular "synths", the 16 MHz Intel 386 with Windoze 3.1 might have been current with 512M disk and 4Meg of memory.
Whatever Yamaha would have been putting in digital pianos at that time wouldn't have been AHEAD of the then current PCs.
I think I wouldn't want to still be stuck with that JUST BECAUSE of the cabinet, though it would be hard to let go of at 5, 7 or 10 years.

I'm still using my KX88 from those days, some things aren't DATED by their date of manufacture. My Amiga is "retired".
(-:

My upgrades & updates (specifically for the music interest) have been minimal.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

The "Top quality that lasts for 20 years" is in fact barely current by the time you buy it. It remains where it was for 20 years, still just as good as the day you bought it, but improvements DO pass you by.

That is exactly the point. Some people don't want all the bells and whistles, or are interested in learning new things/instruments. They simply want to play. Then a 20 year old keyboard is good enough, or even a 150 year old piano. It's a balance between what you need, and how much time, energy, and money you want to spend on having the latest and newest. It is clear that you fall into the latter category, but that does not invalidate the former. And again, playing using the PC is a different experience than playing on a standalone keyboard. Contrary to you, I'm not saying that one is better, just that they are different, and both are valid. Many use both. Most professional musicians use both. For instance composing on the PC but improvising and/or relaxing on the keyboard without using the PC.

Did I miss something ?
Are there FREE upgrade/update software patches to bring 309s and 409s up to 509 ? (or 509.2.1.3 ?).
Do they send you ram expansion kits ?
Did you get one to expand from 4 Meg to 4 Gig ?

No of course not, although it would be wonderful if they could do that. (I've long thought myself, that if I started manufacturing keyboards, I would first of all make them modular. So you can select what capabilities you want and gradually upgrade by switching expansion cards yourself, just like with a PC). But your point is non-sequitur, null and void, basically silly. Because you don't get FREE upgrades from 32 bit PC technology to 64 bit either (or upgrades from 286 to 386 to 486 to pentium to itanium etc). Neither Microsoft or Intel send me RAM cards regularly for free (please give me the name of the person who apparently sends you RAM). As to OS, upgrading from 3.1 to XP to Vista to W7 etc is not FREE either (unless you do it illegally) - however; the OS upgrade of the CVP is in fact FREE, downloadable from the net. Your supposed point is utterly ridiculous.


I think I wouldn't want to still be stuck with that JUST BECAUSE of the cabinet, though it would be hard to let go of at 5, 7 or 10 years.

As I said, it isn't just the furniture aspect; there is much else that plays into it. You obviously prefer a PC, and that is fine. I have no problem with that. But that does not make a keyboard "wrong" and "unnecessary", anymore than the bike became "wrong" when the car came (as I've already pointed out). I am a very tolerant man, but your constant bashing of the keyboard is starting to annoy me. Can you really not accept "different strokes for different folks?"

One day you too will reach the point where you have the "perfect" configuration for YOUR needs, and then you will stop upgrading as well. If this wasn't the case, we would all be running Cray supercomputers in our homes.

Meanwhile, it is clear that you do not want a keyboard. Fine. Let it go - we don't need to hear anymore of it. I don't want a car, but I don't post endlessly on a car afficionado site about why. You're getting close to trolling.

Brgds

Danny

[RBmusic]

Hi!


That is exactly the point. Some people don't want all the bells and whistles, or are interested in learning new things/instruments. They simply want to play. Then a 20 year old keyboard is good enough, or even a 150 year old piano. It's a balance between what you need, and how much time, energy, and money you want to spend on having the latest and newest. It is clear that you fall into the latter category, but that does not invalidate the former. And again, playing using the PC is a different experience than playing on a standalone keyboard. Contrary to you, I'm not saying that one is better, just that they are different, and both are valid. Many use both. Most professional musicians use both. For instance composing on the PC but improvising and/or relaxing on the keyboard without using the PC.


No of course not, although it would be wonderful if they could do that. (I've long thought myself, that if I started manufacturing keyboards, I would first of all make them modular. So you can select what capabilities you want and gradually upgrade by switching expansion cards yourself, just like with a PC). But your point is non-sequitur, null and void, basically silly. Because you don't get FREE upgrades from 32 bit PC technology to 64 bit either (or upgrades from 286 to 386 to 486 to pentium to itanium etc). Neither Microsoft or Intel send me RAM cards regularly for free (please give me the name of the person who apparently sends you RAM). As to OS, upgrading from 3.1 to XP to Vista to W7 etc is not FREE either (unless you do it illegally) - however; the OS upgrade of the CVP is in fact FREE, downloadable from the net. Your supposed point is utterly ridiculous.


As I said, it isn't just the furniture aspect; there is much else that plays into it. You obviously prefer a PC, and that is fine. I have no problem with that. But that does not make a keyboard "wrong" and "unnecessary", anymore than the bike became "wrong" when the car came (as I've already pointed out). I am a very tolerant man, but your constant bashing of the keyboard is starting to annoy me. Can you really not accept "different strokes for different folks?"

One day you too will reach the point where you have the "perfect" configuration for YOUR needs, and then you will stop upgrading as well. If this wasn't the case, we would all be running Cray supercomputers in our homes.

Meanwhile, it is clear that you do not want a keyboard. Fine. Let it go - we don't need to hear anymore of it. I don't want a car, but I don't post endlessly on a car afficionado site about why. You're getting close to trolling.

Brgds

Danny

I don't think that at any point I have prescribed that what would be right for ME would be right for anyone/everyone else.
I (ME, first person) have an aversion to closed systems.
Others do not - that is FINE with me.
I like to be able to upgrade/update things - others do not, again that is FINE with me.
MY preference is to upgrade/update in smaller (less expensive) steps, more of them, perhaps not less expensive in total, but easier to afford every two or three years and closer to "current" technologies.

It is a PREFERENCE - again, MY preference and I am not prescribing it for others.
Your choices, my choices, choices of others, we are all free to make them.
We are all free to express our opinions as to what is right for us.
That is about all I have done here, is to express that what is right for ME is a (relatively) open system.
I have also expressed some of MY rationale for that.
{We COULD argue about the extent to which any system is "open", but that would be even more pointless.}

I do not ask ANYONE to agree with that, although I would urge anyone who is about to embark on ANY major purchase to consider some alternatives.

As to "barking up the wrong tree" lets just agree that you bark up DIFFERENT trees ?
Not "wrong" in my opinion, just different - your choice, etc.

BTW, we ARE now running computers that equate to what Crays used to be (-:
The Gigahertz CPU was a DREAM less than 20 years ago, my first gigabyte hard drive retailed for about $4K in the late 80s, though I got it (free) as a surplus/reject unit. My terabyte back-up drive cost less than $150 a few months ago.
Moore's Law (-:

As far a bicycles and cars are concerned - Well,,, I have an inboard ski boat, but not a Chris Craft.
My SPORT is water skiing, my HOBBY is not caring for mahogany and oiling teak (-:
Different pastimes - I am computer competent, the amount of computer "tinkering" involved in my music making is not a pastime to me, it is a trivial technical task that I undertake when doing upgrades.

Just in case you missed it, I play "live" not via sequenced files on the computer.
Multi tracking / studio production ? Yes, another interesting pastime, but not one of mine.

[ericho]

All digital music instruments are open !!!!
If not thru an interface then by rewriting the eproms,,, no big deal ;)
Besides getting rid off software-bugs its not very useful thou :rolleyes:

Sample size blablabla is sooo outdated and responsible for less then 10% of the overall signal quality and usefulness of your instrument.

The korg M1 days are over, sample size was important in the early 90'

All my electronic instruments older than 15 years are raising in value !!!
The 30 year old ones are worth many thousands of dollars :eek: (lucky me :D )


Two things are important,,, FUN FACTOR,,, SOUND,,,, you happy with it ? this counts ;) !!!!
All the rest is futile commercial crap.

Playing live is fun, using computer (DAW), drum-machines, effectors, arpeggiators and all sorts of midi devises is not a crime and has musical value.
I use everything I can get my hand on,,, part of the hobby :D

My2c

Kind regards

Eric

[Nikki]

To all who own CVP 509PE and maybe the 500 series not sure about that.

There is an issue with the amp inside. I have a slight humming sound from the speakers below.

I just had a repair guy around to cut the trace. 15 minute job. No hum!

[ericho]

Cool :cool:


You didn't take a picture by any chance ??

Eric

[Nikki]

Cool :cool:


You didn't take a picture by any chance ??

Eric

I didn't take my eyes off the 'engineer', especially the screw driver, which seemed rather long and ready to stab itself into the CVP's finish.
The pictures are all in my head . It's so simple to unscrew the two hidden screws to the lid to gain access to the electronics. There's so much room, you could fit a few PCs in there. I caught a glimpse of the back of the keys. I suppose this information will only apply when the warranty expires.

After the repair, the engineer sat at the bench, switched on the Clavinova and casually began playing in a similar style to the pianist at the start of Playing Love. Wow, this guy plays! He stopped after a few seconds and confirmed the fix complete.

[JohnDiV]

Hi Nikki, it is a real simple fix, and it does do the job. Glad to hear that the hum is gone and you are happy.

Doesn't the 509 have a great sound and touch? Yamaha samples are stunning.



John :)

[Nikki]

When I turn up the volume it can sometimes feel exhilarating.. I must let the neighbours know how good this sounds too! My Sony headphones feel a bit lifeless compared to the speakers. There's definitely more to the sound exiting and bouncing about the room than what the headphones can produce. For this reason I'll only use them late in the evening.

[RBmusic]

When I turn up the volume it can sometimes feel exhilarating.. I must let the neighbours know how good this sounds too! My Sony headphones feel a bit lifeless compared to the speakers. There's definitely more to the sound exiting and bouncing about the room than what the headphones can produce. For this reason I'll only use them late in the evening.

Well, there ARE very BASIC differences between what the player hears when playing and what an audience hears when listening.

So, are there separate tunable settings for this ?
Some piano emulator software allows for the spacial placement of the (emulated)microphones.
e.g. Pianoteq, can position as many as 5 microphones to pick up the sound as a recording engineer might, or as the player would hear it binaurally at their head position.
The latter setting would be most natural for the player hearing what they are playing.
I think there are the usual small & large room and hall settings for ambient acoustics when positioning mics in audience positions, but I haven't experimented with that.

So, I guess I'm suggesting that there might be some settings that would "improve" the headphone sound, by selective mic positions and/or by adding (simulated)room reflections and resonances.

Alternatively, your speakers just might be a lot better than your headphones (-:
I would still check the manual for headphone optimized settings.

[Nikki]

The iAFC effect is not incorporated into the headphone output, which is outlined in the manual. Therefore the headphone output lacks the spacial feeling and damper or soundboard resonance. My headphones are Sony MDR7506. I think the Yamaha N2 or N3 has similar issues. It's never going to sound as good over headphones.

[RBmusic]

The iAFC effect is not incorporated into the headphone output, which is outlined in the manual. Therefore the headphone output lacks the spacial feeling and damper or soundboard resonance. My headphones are Sony MDR7506. I think the Yamaha N2 or N3 has similar issues. It's never going to sound as good over headphones.

Hmmm, is iAFC available at the AUX outputs ?
If so you MIGHT be able to use those, though I would be sure to turn the line out volume WAY DOWN before connecting earphones to them.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Hmmm, is iAFC available at the AUX outputs ?
If so you MIGHT be able to use those, though I would be sure to turn the line out volume WAY DOWN before connecting earphones to them.

No, iAFC is not available in any output, and you wouldn't want it to. It is an environment adjustment - not an effect. It uses the microphones at the back of the piano to measure which frequencies the walls, furniture, carpets, curtains, etc, around the piano absorb, and then adjusts it's speaker output so those frequencies don't become muffled. Your ears don't absorb the same frequencies as your walls. And recording it through AUX and taking it to another room would be the same - the iAFC is specifically custom made for the room the piano is in. It will not make sense in any other location.

For the headphones, you should be tweaking the Equaliser, effects like Reverb, and especially Compression make a huge difference (more than iAFC)

Brgds

Danny