Help On a Note ( definition maybe )

[k8ger]

Seeing that this is the software, books and sheet music forum this question may cross a couple of them.... Software and music.....

***** Music******
Not having lots of experience in music, only 3 plus years, 1 year of formal education in music, I am having a little trouble remembering how to handle a note that has a stem going up AND down. I would like some help with this first. Is this note struck with right or left hand? Thanks...

***** Software******

Details if you must..... "Moonlight Sonata" ( First Movement ) measure 37. The last triplet ( beat 4 ), first note, has a eight note ( stem up ) and a eight note stem down -dotted-. I am using Sibelius 5 to write this. The notes will not lay on top of one another. This is not the first note with a stem up and down so far and those did lay on top one another OK... Is the reason it will not lay on top from the rhythm dot maybe???

Thanks in advance..... Gerry

[Carlo]

Hi!


***** Music******
Not having lots of experience in music, only 3 plus years, 1 year of formal education in music, I am having a little trouble remembering how to handle a note that has a stem going up AND down. I would like some help with this first. Is this note struck with right or left hand? Thanks...


I will try to give you a simple explanation.

The direction of stems, from half-notes down to 64th-notes, is a visual help on the staves of scores, chiefly in piano music, in order to deal with the following cases:
(1) in case of single melodic line, to fill in the staff in the most ergonomic way for the reading musician; the thumb rule is: stem up until the third line (from the bottom of the staff) and stem down beyond the third line;
(2) to identify (parallel) melodic lines on the staff; whenever two melodic lines "converge" onto the same note, which is then shared between the two melodies, that note is normally written with two stems, just to highlight its double role;
(3) a particular case of (2) is when one combines a longer-lasting note (say, a quarter-note), belonging to a melody, with a shorter note (say, an 8th-note) belonging to the accompaniment, thus getting a single notehead with two opposite stems, say, upward for the quarter-note and downward for the 8th-note;
(4) a particular case of (3) is just the excerpt from Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata you quote, even if I am a little puzzled because in my edition the upward-stemmed note is a quarter note and the downward-stemmed note is an 8th-note, without any dot (but this small difference is irrelevant for our case); the author wants the pianist to mark the melody with his/her first finger of the right hand while continuing the triplet flow, and keeping the whole-note-long G-sharp chord in the bass well sustained...

I am sorry I don't know Sibelius, and therefore I can't give you a hint on how to render all that by software.

In the end, you see there was nothing so mysterious. ;)
Enjoy your Moonlight! (Hope to see it posted... ).

Best regards,

[k8ger]

Carlo:

First, Thank You so much for helping me with this. I have hesitated for sometime to post this issue......

Your points 1-4 are well taken. I forgot about number 1... Very basic music.... DAH..... Hi Hi...

The stem up / down on the quarter / eight note is irrelevant, I think as you said... ?? I can make and put the beams top or bottom. Not sure why they are were they are... They are both ways in this edition depending where in the song you are. BTW, it is Alfred's Basic Adult Piano Course, Adult All-In-One Course Lesson - Theory - Solo .... Level Three. Page 138. The rule of were you are on the staff, ie line / space makes sense.

I some how think it is a timing issue as you did state in part of your explanation. The dotted quarter note does not fit the 'form' eight note triplet. So then Sibelius will not put the notes on top of one another....

As I look ahead the next two measures ( 38 & 39 ) have eight note triplets and half notes not on top one another with the first note of the triplet...... Why now the half notes won't stack and the eight / quarter will...... does this still make sense???

It just hit me... I think.... The filling of the note..... Quarter on down filled and half and whole not filled.... ??? The key to the length of the note....

The main thing is not to re-strike the note??? Another can of worms..... Gerry

Thanks Again...

[Carlo]

Dear Gerry,

I understand that I didn't manage to fully explain you the issue of your interest.
Therefore I have prepared and attached a small, annotated excerpt of the three bars from Moonlight Piano Sonata for you to solve all your doubts.

It's really quite simple and it's matter of plain arythmetics.

First of all, you should take into account that, if you have a 4/4 beat (as in Moonlight case), and the bar is divided into four triplets of 8th notes, each 8th note, despite its nominal value, actually lasts one twelfth of the whole measure (in fact, you can count that there are twelve 8th notes per bar).
It follows then that the note looking as a quarter note, sitting on top of the second 8th note of the third triplet of bar #37, despite its aspect, is supposed to last not one fourth of the whole measure, but instead two twelfths (i.e. one sixth), thus corresponding to the two "pseudo" 8th notes, with opposite stem, which complete the third triplet.
On the other hand, the fourth triplet of bar #37 has a more natural division in two lines: in fact, there you have a "true" quarter note sitting on top of the first "pseudo" 8th note of the triplet. Hence, the quarter note lasts rightly one fourth of the whole bar, and corresponds to the three twelfths of the three underlying, beamed, "pseudo" 8th notes.
The pattern of bars #38 and #39, at this point, should be easy to decipher: the half note corresponds to the first two triplets, and the quarter notes at the third and fourth beat correspond each to one triplet.
On the whole, the longer notes (quarter notes and half notes) make a beautiful, intermediate, melodic line between the sustained bass and the triplet flow.
So much, so good for arithmetics.

The point I am not sure of is if Sibelius (the software) can easily digest these subtleties with its editing capabilities, and can accordingly give a staff nicely looking as far the position and colour of noteheads, the stem orientation, and the beams of notes are concerned...

In any case, I would suggest you to adopt an editing solution driven by the intended "effects while playing", and I wouldn't bother so much about pretty printing...

Good luck, and enjoy your Moonlight Sonata!

Best regards,

[JoeM]

Thank you Carlo. I have been playing the Moonlight Sonata (1st movement) for many years and I never noticed this subtlety. Now I will pay more attention.

Your diagram is very clear. How did you superimpose the explanations on the music? Thanks.

[Carlo]

Dear Joe,

I'm happy you have discovered some new nuances in a celebrated piano composition.

The explanatory Powerpoint slide was set up as follows:
(1) I selected a good printed edition of Moonlight Sonata from the IMSLP website (International Music Score Library Project), whose home page is this (http://www.imslp.org). As you remember, there you can find a huge number of public-domain scores in pdf format.
(2) By editing the pdf file containing the Moonlight Sonata by Acrobat reader, I selected and ripped off the three bars of interest for the discussion.
(3) I pasted the obtained image into an empty Powerpoint slide and added the decorations, i.e. the coloured arrows with the explaining captions as text.
(4) I saved the file, zipped it with Winzip and uploaded it with my post into the thread of the forum.

Et voilà. Très simple, n'est-ce pas?

Best regards,

[JoeM]

C'est très simple. Merci beaucoup. However I have never used power point before. I guess I will start using it.

[k8ger]

Carlo:

Thanks for the power point explanation. ( BTW.. High winds in the area last 24 hours. No phones or power. That's why I had not seen your last post.. ) Makes me feel like I should have you on the clock.. Hi hi...

The PP makes it very clear now and makes the mathematical explanation as it should be. Sibelius 5 ( 1 version or so behind ) with my level of experience just was not getting the job done...... It maybe playing it right into my 309 but may have to slow it down and really listen. Not to that point yet. I will give it a good look later when I finish inputting the score.

BTW... Got an E-mail from Amazon today and their is a new release for the Alfred's book I am using with the CD of all the music. CD did not come with the one I have. Don't really need to input the score into Sibelius now, but look what I have learned doing it the hard way......

Thanks again for your help and being here.... Also thanks to the board.....I also see we have gotten lots of reads....... Later.. Gerry

Luzerne, Michigan USA..... Not to be confused with Lucerne, Switzerland Hi Hi..

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Carlo, as usual you are doing an amazingly excellent job at teaching! You really should be doing that professionally.

I need to take a vacation in Rome (I never have). It would be wonderful for you to show me the sites of the Pines and the Fountains. :cool:

Brgds

Danny