What happens to old floppies?

[danielsanderson]

So what happens to our libraries of floppy disks with the new floppy-less 300 series? Will Yamaha credit us direct-download purchases for our old disks? I'm going to take a wild guess and assume Y hasn't set up an upgrade path for prior customers, but I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Also, will future Yamaha play-along books include SmartMedia from now on, or will there be some kind of trick to use direct download after a book purchase?

Of course, I don't trust the only-one-copy practice, and hope someone will develop unofficial methods for making personal backups. (Not piracy, mind you, just personal backups.) I have several $40 floppy disks that I know will go bad in the next few years, and while Yamaha has offered to replace faulty disks, if Y is deprecating floppies, that's going to be a limited time offer.

Thanks!
-- Dan

[Midi Magic]

Well. It gets worse.

I have quite a few Eseq file disks, some are original Pianosoft and others have been made by friends with Disklaviers.

Now I copied these disks onto a Smart Media card and took it alone to try out in a new CVP 3xx piano (I also tried it in a PSR 3000). And guess what. The CVP will not see any Eseq files stored on the SM card. I even tried the card in a card reader pluged into the USB port.

It would see and play Midi files but NOT Eseq. Yamaha said "why have you got Eseq files on a SM card? As we only provide them on floppy, we will not surport them on SM".

One thing I have found with computers, there is always more than one way to skin a cat. In this case, I just converted all the Eseq files to Midi and put the midi file onto the SM.

But why should we, have to break into Y's protection, copy the disks to HDD, then convert their files into midi. All this just to keep up with their latest lack of forsight.

I have even seen their new keyboards with NO Midi sockets or floppy disk drive, just a USB. Now how daft is that. A keyboard you can ONLY use with a computer.

YES Yamaha's disks CAN be backed up for saftey reasons and should be. (Mail me direct)
Make a copy and use that for everyday use, putting the original away for safe keeping.

We all know they say they will replace them but I have Yamaha disks that have been out of print for 10 yrs now, so how will they replace these?


I have ALL of my floppies stored onto my HDD AND CDrom. This way I have total backup and I can play any disk/file on the CVP via the PC, even their Eseq files. I will never have to put a floppy into the CVP again.

[jcwright]

You will be interested to learn that the new CVP units include a USB to Device connector that can also accomodate a USB floppy drive. These are available at your local computer retailers for a modest amount. This is the easiest fix I've run across in my inquiries with Yamaha.

John

[wally]

But, can Yamaha's files be transferred to a USB thumb drive and read into the CVP (without conversion)?

[Midi Magic]

Hi Wally

But, can Yamaha's files be transferred to a USB thumb drive and read into the CVP (without conversion)?

Not having access to a memory stick (I think that is the same as a thumb drive) I can not be sure. But if it will not work on the USB card reader I can not see it working from a memory stick.
Yamaha will only see Eseq / .fil files from a floppy.

What's more, even the CVP 307 only has one USB port. So it is either a memory stick / card reader or a floppy drive.

I did think, WOW, I could get all of my Pianosoft disks onto 2 128Meg Smart Media cards instead of all those floppies, but not without converting them all to midi first.

Still, I used the Yamplayer program to do a "batch convert" and that converted all of my disks to midi in one go.

[jcwright]

I attended a CVP product launch in June. It was stated that some of these concerns about single downloads was still under consideration. I have dozens of Clav and Disklavier disks that will loose their magnetic latency over the next few years. Some are aready gone. I used to have an old version of "SpinRite" that I'm hoping to find someware in my garage. The program will do low level read and rewrite to restore an old floppy. If I can't fine it I'll have to spring for a new copy.

Converting Eseq to midi has its problems for me. First the audio levels have to be remixed and then the choice and use of other voices seems not to be as good. The use of sustain reverts to on/off and no longer accomodates half pedal.

John

[Midi Magic]

This will of course depend on the Eseq to Midi conversion program used.

All Pianosoft disks are only piano so the revoiceing is not an issue.

Pianosoft Plus do have an orchestra but these convert just fine.

The copy programs can be found on this group under MIDI and XG
and are called RipARoot this is for DOS

RootARipper is for Win2000 and XP also to be found in MIDI and XP section. This will work on 1.44M disks where as other programs will not.

THESE ARE FOR PERSONAL BACKUP ONLY.

[jcwright]

Wally,

You havea point. But there still remains and option.

John

[danielsanderson]

Not to be a paranoid pain about it, but has anyone tested using a USB floppy drive with a 300-series Clavinova and commercially produced floppy discs, i.e. with Yamaha's copy protection stuff on them? It probably works, but I wouldn't trust a Yamaha salesperson to know for a fact that a USB floppy drive works for sure.

Not that I can afford to upgrade to a 307, but I'm curious what the options are. :)

[Midi Magic]

Hi

The CVP 300s DO come with an USB disk drive, well they do in the UK.

Having spoken to Yamaha Tech support about the Eseq files not working from the smart card I was told that the Eseq files will only work from the floppy drive. So I can only say take one along to your dealer and try it out.

"but I'm curious what the options are. "

Take a floppy along to try out for yourself or convert them to midi. At the very least I would back them up to a CD rom, just in case.

[jcwright]

Yes. I was able to use Eseq and DOC Yamaha floppies with a CVP307. No problem. In answer to my queries with Yamaha's Product manager here in Canada. You will have the option of using all your old floppy based software with the USB floppy drive supplied.

I think we are all aware that the floppy is long past its expiry date. So no suprises if we see it gone within the next few years. We see floppy drives now provided only as an accessory on some new computers.

John

[Midi Magic]

Hi All

As I said before, "I have even seen their new keyboards with NO Midi sockets or floppy disk drive, just a USB. Now how daft is that. A keyboard you can ONLY use with a computer."

Looks like the way of things to come. Glad I have all my disks on CDrom and play my CVP via midi from the PC. They won't catch me out.

[fredsmith99]

I have experience going from a 209 to a Tyros, and I expect that going to the 300 will be similar.

As you would expect, the Midi files play without conversion. Style files are also no problem. Music Finder files require conversion, but it's a relatively simple process (there's a conversion program on the PSRTutorials website). Registration files do not convert at all. To convert Registration files, hook up your two instruments via a midi cable, and transfer each registration bank separately.

As far as I can tell, the lack of a floppy drive on the 300s has no impact on this situation. You can transfer files through the USB much more easily than floppies. In fact, even though the Tyros has a floppy drive, I never use it. That being said, I had all my files backed up to my computer's hard drive.

[Carlitin]

Midi Magic : I got the RootARipper,and save all my old disklavier diskets ( 10 years old), and make to MIDI files, now, I have all of them like new one. Thanks a lot. From Panama, Carlitin Originally posted by Midi Magic
This will of course depend on the Eseq to Midi conversion program used.

All Pianosoft disks are only piano so the revoiceing is not an issue.

Pianosoft Plus do have an orchestra but these convert just fine.

The copy programs can be found on this group under MIDI and XG
and are called RipARoot this is for DOS

RootARipper is for Win2000 and XP also to be found in MIDI and XP section. This will work on 1.44M disks where as other programs will not.

THESE ARE FOR PERSONAL BACKUP ONLY. :D

[tomtomsf]

Hi Midi Magic

I just wanted to mention that Yamaha's new USB port technology is very good. The PSR3000 has only one USB port. However, you can easily plug a USB hub into it and have 4 ports. You can use one for USB floppy, one for card reader, one for memory stick, and the forth to connect to your computer. I even think you can daisy-chain the USB hubs to allow more ports. I am sure the newest CVP's must have this type of USB. I should think that would take care of the problem of using floppy disks.

Tom G.

[Midi Magic]

Hi Tom

Yes the CVPs have both types of USB ports in & out.
When I said keyboard I ment the small potable type.

The keyboards I saw were at the lower end of the market, around £250 and these only have a USB IN port, so you could not connect it to anything other then a PC.

[danielsanderson]

I'm pleased to hear that some 300s are including a USB floppy drive. I assume from this that any old USB floppy drive is sufficient to use commercially distributed disks. (It seems unlikely that Yamaha would manufacture custom drives just to suport legacy media.)

I realize floppies were due to expire as the rewritable storage format of choice for these instruments. My concern is that an important need, the collection and archival of purchased digital material, has been eliminated. Even with floppies, archival has been discouraged in favor of copy protection, but we still had a physical proof of purchase to use for exchanges. And as we've mentioned, some have also been able to work around the protection for archival purposes.

With this new Internet download feature, Yamaha has said that the equipment will only allow one copy of the file to exist for each purchase. I'll be interested to know if/when someone has managed to archive songs purchased online, because I otherwise don't trust that I'll be allowed to keep music I paid for the privilege to download.

I once paid $19 for a download of some Ravel from Yamaha's website once, and they required that I use their special program (Windows only, grr!) to download it and write it to a floppy disk, so I could not save it to the hard drive. What's my recourse if the over-the-counter floppy I saved it to goes bad, as have most of my other floppies? (I realize I can use the usual floppy imaging techniques to archive this disk, but Y doesn't want us doing that.) Do I beg Yamaha tech support for another download, assuming they still have a record of my purchase? What if their Windows-only floppy writing software, hypothetically, doesn't work with Windows XP SP-2, and they don't plan on fixing it? How about five years from now, with Windows Longhorn, floppies long extinct and working floppy drives rare, and me still with my CVP-207?

Media is fragile, and media shifting and archiving is an important tool for us to have to protect against degradation. Considering how long Clavinova users tend to hang on to old equipment, and how expensive the music files are, it's worth noting the consequences of Yamaha's decisions to grant or withhold these abilities in the name of copy protection.

-- Dan

[Midi Magic]

Hi Dan

"so I could not save it to the hard drive."

Use RootARipper to backup the files to your hard drive and then copy them to a backup floppy.

What's my recourse if the over-the-counter floppy I saved it to goes bad, as have most of my other floppies?

The way I see it..........NONE

(I realize I can use the usual floppy imaging techniques to archive this disk, but Y doesn't want us doing that.)"


Well, as Yamaha have started to make CVPs without built in floppies, the USB floppy is an after thought, we have no other option but to copy their disks and get them backed up.
And, if need be, convert them to a more modern format, ie MIDI

As it has been said before, Yamaha will replace them, BUT for how long? Even now I have DOC disks that Yamaha haven't had in stock for years, so how will they replace them?

Get them backed up NOW. Better be safe than sorry.

In fact, if you download and use Yamplayer not only will it play the files straight from the PC / Laptop, it can convert them all to midi in one go. You will never have to use a floppy disk again.

BTW

The new CVPs will NOT play Eseq files from a smart card or card reader, so I have had to converted all my disks to midi and then save them to a 128Meg card.

[dancaputi]

The Yamaha disks with this so called "copy protection" are simply missing a Master Boot Record. RootARipper is a disk recovery tool that will bypass the MBR and access the file system directly from the floppy's root directory.

Make your backups in good faith and don't think twice about it. It's all about "fair use".

- Dan C.

[danielsanderson]

I'm less concerned about breaking the law (and circumventing copy protection for *any* purpose violates U.S. law) than I am about Yamaha aggressively making it practically impossible to archive purchased digital material. And to be sure, it's a practical matter, because I'm not going to buy another digital piano for at least another decade*, and I think purchasers of the 300-series won't either, so any music we buy now will have to last that long.

[*Don't hold me to that, of course. :) ]

Maybe it's easier to media shift and archive than I think. I assume that even though a Direct Download file is removed from the piano when it is put onto a media card, that the file on the media card can still be read, removed, archived and restored by a PC like any other file. I would also assume that the resulting file contains the piano's serial number to play only on the original piano, or otherwise requires that the owner log in to the piano or transfer ownership to another account to play on a different instrument. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[CountJS]

Hi,
keep in mind that Yamaha has all of the PianoSoft material saved on their hard drives - if your disk goes bad, you can always send the bad disk to Yamaha Corp in Buena Park, and they will replace the disk. Eventually, most all music soft titles will be available on IDC.
The disk drives are not going away. The new Disklavier MK4 has a disk drive (removable) and a super large HD...

The IDC function does not work like iTunes where you will have to authorize a piano to play the track. Although, in the future, downloadable songs may have copy encryption (PianoSoft), currently, they are all MIDI files that you can save and play anywhere. XF and Scorch will be available soon as a download feature.

Cheers,
JS