Chord and section change data not visible in Chord tab of digital recorder

[azyva]

Hello,

I am a proud new owner of a Yamaha CVP-303. One of the nice things about this instrument is that there is this user groupe dedicated to it! Wow.

I have a concern with how a song is encoded. More specifically, why chord and section change data not visible in Chord tab of digital recorder.

In seems that most (not all) songs use a style for producing the accompaniement parts. For instance, while a song is playing, you can see the section button lights change to indicate section changes, and you see a corresponding difference in the accompaniement pattern, and fill-ins are inserted accordingly.

These changes must be encoded in the song data, and indeed, they are encoded as Sys/Ex events (then can be seen as such in the Sys/Ex tab of the digital recording panel). These events cannot be edited manually.

But I would have expected these events to show up in the Chord tab of the digital recording panel since this tab does support chord and section change events. And it seems that they would then be manually editable.

The Chord tab seems to contain song setup events associated with bar 1, and and End event at around bar 3. That's it.

Also, if I press the Play button while in the Chord tab, the song starts playing correctly, but as soon as it reaches the End event, the accompaniment stops and only the song data continues to play (channels 1 through 8).

If I press the Play button while in another tab, the song plays fine until its "true" end.

To me, this seems to be a software bug in the instrument.

What do you think?

Could there be somekind of firmware upgrade?

Am I missing something?

Thanks for replying,

David

[dbjorck]

Hi!

I've noticed the same thing.

What's more, I've been following the instructions for recording chord and section changes in the manual to the letter, but it doesn't work. Nothing appears in the Chord tab.

Brgds

Danny

[azyva]

I have contacted Yamaha technical support.

They promptly responded to me with this answer:

-----

Hi David,

The Chord Tab in Song Creator lets you step-write the chords, section changes, tempo, etc. in the accompaniment. Once you make the proper entries in this screen, you can play it back (from this screen). If you are happy with the way the accompaniment plays for the entire song, then you can press the corresponding button to EXPAND the chord track into a Standard MIDI File. If you plan on making changes to the Chord track, make sure to SAVE it while the Chord Tab is selected. Once the chord track has been EXPANDED, you will not be able to make changes to the sections. For that reason, you should save the CHORD track separately.

-----

So it looks like the information in the Chord tab is not directly part of the song data, or at least, the actual MIDI data. You can step record chord and section change information in there, but you have to actualize the information within the MIDI data by EXPANDing it. Once this is done, the information is gone, unless it is actually saved with the song.

I have not tried it yet, but that answer makes sense, although it would have been nice to see these chord and section changes for an existing song with the Chord tab, and be able to edit them.

David

[Midi Magic]

Hi

Just seen this post and it looks like Yamaha have answered it for me.

When you record on the cvp LIVE, not step time, it is saved as a normal midi file which can then be played on any midi device.
The CHORD TAB is only used for STEP TIME input of chords. Mind you, if you can make any sense out of it then let me know.
I have tried to use it but it always seems to have an End command 2 bars after the last entery and seems too complicated. (maybe I am getting too old)

[playingbyear]

I can confirm that this same condition is true for other Yamaha portable keyboards. I own a Yamaha PSR-3000 and I am expereincing the same problem. I've also checked the Yamaha Tyros manual and it appears that you can only use Chord tab for manual entry and editing of chords and section changes. The chords are being recorded as a sysex meta event.

I used to have a Korg arranger keyboard and it records the chords in a separate track as you play which can be edited later. I was expecting Yamaha would have a similar feature. I am very dissappointed!

I've tried entering the chords in step mode. It sure takes some time. The data is saved when you saved the song. So all the information is in the midi file. If you made a change later (ie add a fill in or break), you need to re-expand the data to regenerate the real midi accomp tracks. From what I've read on the internet, these information are at the end of the midi file. So it just a matter of manipulating the midi file to extract the info in the sysex events and then generate the appropriate data entry for the Chord tab in Digital Recording. I am also a programmer and I think I can write this utility software to manipulate the song/midi file but I need some info (SDK - software development kit) from Yamaha to get started. I've emailed a Yamaha rep a month ago about the sdk and he said he will forward my request to the R&D group. I am still waiting for Yamaha's response.

[dancaputi]

Yes, but what I find ODD is that if you save (with the chord tab active - ?) it remembers the chord data you've step added as a kind of hidden or special track. Where's that actually go? We know it can't reconstruct the track after it's been expanded otherwise there'd be no issue here.

(and yes, I'm definately getting too old)

- Dan C.

[dancaputi]

playingbyear,

(Looks like your post went in as I was typing my first response)

What info do you need to "get started"? ... I'm afraid getting an SDK from Yam for the CVP would be like asking the US gov't to supply you with an API for the Department of Defense mainframe... Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess?

- Dan C.

[azyva]

I did not expect my original question to generate so much interest.

Thanks everyone.

And playingbyear, if you are right in saying that the Chord tab information is actually at the end of the MIDI file, then it should be relatively easy to reverse engineer the file to figure out how the information is encoded.

A song could could be step-recorded with a very precise chord sequence and section change sequence. Then, the MIDI file could be inspected to match these sequences to the data in it.

If I had the time, that would be an interesting project.

As far as getting some kind of SDK from Yamaha, perhaps simply getting the information about how the Chord tab information is encoded would be sufficient. An SDK from Yamaha may not be pertinent since most of the information in the MIDI file is relatively standard, and should be readable with other general purpose SDKs that may be available on the Net. Most information beside the Yamaha-specific stuff that is, such as the Chord tab information.

playingbyear, if you do get an SDK or some information about the format of the Chord tab data, you would be kind to share it.

Thanks,

David

[dbjorck]

Hi!

I have been working on this a lot lately.

Firstly I pointed out above that I was totally unable to Step Record, even though I followed the examples in the manual to the letter. I have now finally found out the problem. Step Recording chords does not work if you have the Fingering set to one of the AI modes. In a way I can understand that, but the manual says nothing about it. Resetting Fingering to Multi I can now record and find it very easy to do.

Secondly if I understand Yamaha Support correctly above he says you can't make changes to styles and section changes once you've Expanded it. However, I have been able to do just that. The songs I've now saved with Chords I can go back to and make whatever changes I want on the Chord tab, which can then be re-Expanded to traditional MIDI data.

Brgds

Danny