smart media cards

[bluemonkey]

i hope i'm not 'wearing out my welcome' with the number of new threads/questions i'm posting. but this is such a great site, and i just gotta ask.

is the smart media card limited to 128 MB? how many tunes will fit on one; or how much playing time?

the cheapest 128 MB card i've found is $25 on tigerdirect.com

are there better sources?

as ever,

bluemonkey

[Tapas]

Bluemonkey,

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Smart Media cards have a maximum memory capacity of 128MB. Assuming the average size of a MIDI file to be 50KB, you can store 2560 MIDI files on a single card. Assuming each MIDI file plays for 3 minutes, that is 128 hours of glorious music.

You got yourself a pretty good deal on the card. I got mine from Amazon.com for $21 with free shipping after the $10 rebate.

Always check www.froogle.com for deals.

Tapas

[PEPyle]

I just ordered an "Edge" brand 128 MB card from www.computers4sure.com for US$15.95 after a $20 mail-in rebate.
You would need to spend another $14.05 to get free shipping. (I ordered a power surge suppressor to qualify).

I already have a multi-format card reader on my computer, so it is not costing very much to get set up for SmartMedia!

[ericho]

Hi

Did you know that the lifetime of a smartmediacard is not very impressive.

I got 4 cards in use for 6 years "for some other divices" and 2 of them are already corrupt.

Eric

[Tapas]

Hi Eric,

Besides being fragile and limited in capacity, I found that there was absolutely no interest in SmartMedia at this years CES. It is being quietly phased out.

There were two giant booths for SD cards and Compact Flash. It seems these two formats have come out as winners.

I would not be surprised to find after 5 years that Yamaha is the only company adopting SmartMedia cards and Floppy Discs. They may gain exclusive rights and start selling them for a dollar a megabyte. :D :D :D

Tapas

[bluemonkey]

...so it seems that 'smart media' is an oxymoron. <g> smart media is limited to only 128 megs and is about 2-4 times more expensive than other formats. would it be possible to retrofit the cvp's with sd or compact flash?

[bassclef]

Regarding the limitations of SmartMedia cards discussed above.

Is it possible to plug a flash card reader into the USB port of the instrument? If this connetion is viable, then all types of flash media cards could be accessed via the reader.

Maybe someone with a 3XX series Clavinova, could test this theory?

[Sunny]

As I mentioned in my previous post (see http://www.cvpug.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=862&perpage=15&pagenumber=1), "Smart Media has been phased out in most electronic gears". Thanks Tapas for confirming this at the 2005 CES!

However, it seems that the SmartMedia slot is the default drive designated by Yamaha for firmware upgrade (again, see the above thread), and as such we can't totally move away from SmartMedia yet (at least not until we can reconfigure the USB port for firmware upgrades).

But besides its use for upgrading the firmware, I don't see much benefit of having the SmartMedia slot. We could always use the USB port to read/write multiple USB thumb drives (by daisy-chaining multiple USB hubs), or hooking up a multi-card reader/writer for portability with other types of flash media cards. If you compare the cost per MB of memory, you could probably get more bangs for your money by using USB drives instead of using flash media cards (especially the SmartMedia, which is a lot costlier due to its diminishing supply).

[Avi-J]

I have recently purchased a SunDisk 1 GB SD card for $80 and an SD CameraMate (USB) card reader for $10 (with an included USB cable) from J&R computer. I use SD cards as storage devices for my digital camera, as well as my HP iPAQ 6315 Pocket PC wireless phone (on which MIDI, as well as MP3-based songs are playable using Windows Media Player). My entire MIDI file collection, as well as some MP3 and photo files, among others are stored on this stamp-size, feather-light 1 GB SD card!! I also use this SD card as a storage/backup device for some important documents which I use interchangeably between my PC and Pocket PC.

The SD card is the most widely deployed flash memory card today (it currently has 40% market share and should hit the 70% mark by 2007). Some of its advantages include:

- The SD card does not require power to store data
- Ultimate portability (size and weight)
- Compatibility/popularity
- By end of 2005 its storage capability is expected to be between 2-4 GB and 8 GB by end of 2006
- High MIDI file storage capacity - as Tapas has mentioned, if the average MIDI file size is 50KB then a 1 GB SD card stores 20,000 MIDI songs – enough to listen to - let alone learn and play - for ever and ever

Now back to the CVP-309:

As part of my CVP-309 evaluation - while visiting a Yamaha dealer last week - I connected the SD card reader (with my SD card in it, of course) to one of the two USB ports (works on either one) of a CVP-309. No driver installation was needed. Just wanted to make sure that all of the folders, subfolders and their respectively contained MIDI files are visible and accessible and, of course, that all of the songs are playable - which they all were! So I managed to kill two birds with one stone: I was able to listen to and compare many of my favorite music pieces (classical & jazz) on the various 309 models (without having to carry diskettes) while also testing and verifying the SD card suitability.

Obviously, Yamaha made a mistake by limiting the compatibility of the 309 series’ front panel card slot to the SmartMedia card only. They should have employed a multi-card slot – which I’m sure they’ll include in the next CVP series. However, the 300 series certainly provide adequate USB-based storage options (hard drives of any size should work as well). BTW, it would be so much more convenient if at least one USB port was built into the front panel (felt like a car mechanic lying down on my back searching for the USB port…).

Will post some key findings of my evaluation of the 309 GP/PE/PM at the “CVP 300 Series Features & Tradeoffs” thread in the near future.

[Tapas]

Avi,

I think your idea of including a multi-card reader on the front panel of the next generation CVP would be the perfect solution. They are so cheap. You can buy these 11 in 1 readers/writers for under $20.

Yamaha could also release a simple OS enhancement on the current 300 series so that it checks all the USB ports and not just the SmartMedia slot. It is kind of lame having to buy a SmartMedia card just to upgrade the firmware.

I would be very interested to read about your comparisons amongst the 309 models, especially the difference in key action between the PM and GP versions.

Tapas

PS. I have a feeling Yamaha did not want to hurt its relationship with Sony (Memory Stick) or Panasonic (SD Media) by favoring one format over the other and instead went with SmartMedia. Perhaps license fees were an issue too.

We have to remember that Yamaha is trying to push their own protocols (mLAN) and make them universally accepted. You gotta play nice in this game.

[PEPyle]

SmartMedia should be available for quite a while, but probably only 128MB cards and in less brands than today.

That is because quite a few cameras were made to use them: Fuji Photo Film, Sega Enterprises, Minolta, Olympus, Ricoh, Sanyo, JVC, Sharp and Toshiba all sold products that take SmartMedia cards.
from info at: http://www.ssfdc.or.jp/english/faq/index.htm

A quick check of the first on the list, Fuji, shows that they now use the thicker xD cards in their current camera line.

[Midi Magic]

Hi Tapas

"Yamaha could also release a simple OS enhancement on the current 300 series so that it checks all the USB ports and not just the SmartMedia slot."

I have a 5 in 1 USB reader and it works fine when I plug it into the USB slot. However, I have only tried SmartMedia in it as I don't have any other cards with midi files on them.

One thing it WON'T do (USB reader or the Smartreader slot) is it will NOT read Eseq files saved to a Smartreader card. Eseq files are Yamaha's Pianosoft .fil files. These files HAVE to be converted to Midi first, then saved to the Smartmedia. After that they play fine.


"We have to remember that Yamaha is trying to push their own protocols (mLAN) and make them universally accepted. You gotta play nice in this game."


We will have to wait and see. Yamaha bought out the Eseq file format hopeing the world would follow. Instead they chose the Midi file format.

[bassclef]

Hi Avi-J, Midi Magic & others,

Thank you for confirming my initial premise that the USB port on the 3xx series will function with multi card readers.

Since my first post, I've also tested the Tyros with the multi card reader and a 128Mb SD card.

Not surprisingly, all file transfer functions work fine without any drivers.

Regards,
bassclef

[bassclef]

Hi Avi-J,

Yes, I agree, Yamaha should have put the USB port on the main panel to facilitate easier access.

In order to avoid feeling like "a car mechanic" as you put it,
I've plugged in a 4 port USB hub, which sits on the top of the cabinet, within easy reach.

Great saving on chiropractor fees, too!

Regards,
bassclef

[Avi-J]

Hi Bassclef,

Glad I could be of help. You're right - once I plugged in the USB cable there was no need to get under the piano anymore.

Tapas, another idea for Yamaha is to include on the front panel a PC card reader. That would be an efficient way to adopt various devices including multi-card readers, as well as removable hard drives etc.

[sablair]

The CVP 307 will run a .bat file on a floppy when it's inserted into the drive, even after the CVP is on. That's how the USA V3 software is installed. Unfortunately, a floppy only holds up to 1.4 megs.

Does that shed any light on the USB port setup?:confused:

[Andreas]

For me this discussion about the smart media card slot whether it is oldfashioned or not is a little bit ridiculous. Via USB1 you can put in a card reader. My Imation-cardreader takes different cards, Smartmedia and also SD. With SD you can come with 512MB, thats a lot, so what? I had no problems reading my 128MB card which I normally use with my Panasonic Lumix camera... But I can either use the smartmedia card with this reader and also use the smartmedia slot of the cvp, so where is the problem?
I think Yamaha has build the finest digitalpiano-series on the market with the CVP300 series... so every user of this excellent kind of instrument should be happy and not worry about nothing...;)

[Tapas]

Andreas,

Certainly the CVP-300 series is a technological wonder. It is also a pretty expensive toy. A few well thought alterations could not hurt.

1. Replace the SmartMedia slot on the front panel with a multi card reader/writer for CompactFlash, SD/MMC, xD, Memory Stick, SmartMedia, Microdrives, etc.

2. Include 4 USB 2.0 ports on the front panel.

3. Replace the floppy drive with a CDRW or even a CD drive.

These modifications do not cost much, but greatly improves the usability.

Tapas

[Sunny]

Added the above to the Clavinova wish list...

[dalgety]

Andreas,

Most of us are content to use USB-based memory and just leave the SmartMedia slot sitting there, useless, on our instument. It kinda sucks to pay for something like that, but so what? But the problem is, it seems Yamaha are going to be releasing firmware upgrades that can ONLY be applied via SmartMedia. This means we have to make an investment in technology we won't use for anything else. If Yamaha will post an upgrade solution that works via USB-based memory, I'll happily ignore the SmartMedia slot!

I cracked open the v1.54 upgrade zip file and found that sadly, it doesn't contain a batch file, which we could have stuck on a floppy and modified to pull the large binary files from external media.

-Ross

[Andreas]

Dear Dalgety,
sorry but I don´t understand the problem. Is it only the investment in a smart media card, which will cost roundabout 20$ for 128mb? That´s the price of a new Audio CD, so where is the problem?

[dalgety]

You're right Andreas - it's only $20 plus a reader. You won't hear another peep out of me on this topic.
:D

-Ross

[dbjorck]

Hi!

It is not a cost issue.

For me it is a matter of principle; if it is a required accessory for it too work properly in the future, it should be included. Much like the power cord.

Brgds

Danny

[DonRecardo]

I have 3 smart media cards . One sits in my CVP307 , one I had been using on my PC via a multi card reader and the other was sitting about as a spare

I formatted one in the CVP and it works great

The one on the PC card reader I formatted on the pc and used it to move files between my home PC and works PC , that works great too

I then decided to use the PC SM card on the CVP to which it said " not formatted"
as it has a PC format on it

I told the CVP to format it but it couldnt and said it was a faulty card

I tried it again in the PC and still it works fine

To test the theory ( I never learn do I ) I formatted the 3rd card in the PC then tried to re format it on the CVP to be told again its a duff card , but the card is fine in the PC
So it seems if its ever formatted in the PC then the CVP will say it cant format it,

Is there any way to un format it in the PC , so that hopefully I can then re format in the CVP and use it in there

Regards
Don

[Steve]

I have formatted both my smart media cards on my pc. They both work fine with my pc and CVP-303. I have not even tried to format the card on the CVP - no need to do so...

[Sunny]

Don,
There may be 2 possibilities. But without knowing the details of what version of Windows you have or the type and capacity of your SM cards, I can only speculate...

1. If you're using Windows XP, and if your SM card has a capacity greater than 32MB, your PC may have formatted the SM card (by default) with the FAT32 format. The CVP most probably uses the FAT (FAT16 & FAT12) format and can not operate with a FAT32 formatted card. However, this possibility is quite unlikely because the CVP could have reformated your SM card in the FAT format (or you may select FAT file system to reformat the SM card with your Windows XP PC).

2. The SmartMedia card slot on the CVP operates at 3.3 V only. Your SM cards may be of the type with the operation voltage of 5V. A SmartMedia card can’ t be interchanged between 3.3 V and 5 V systems.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure how to differentiate between a 3.3V and a 5V SM card unless it's stated on the card itself. As you may already know, documentation for SM card may be scarce nowadays because the format is no longer supported by most in the flash media industry. See http://www.cvpug.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=921

[PEPyle]

Originally posted by Sunny
2. The SmartMedia card slot on the CVP operates at 3.3 V only. Your SM cards may be of the type with the operation voltage of 5V. A SmartMedia card can’ t be interchanged between 3.3 V and 5 V systems.

Here is a link to the correct SmartMedia organization showing the different notch location on the two cards:
http://www.ssfdc.or.jp/english/common/f_spec.htm

The 5V are very uncommon.

[desipianist]

I probably missed it, but will the 300 series be able to read files from a USB flash drive? Or do I need to have a smart card or some other card connected to the piano via a card reader?

[dalgety]

Yep, you missed it - it's been rehashed numerous times. But so you don't have to bother scrolling up... you CAN use other media to store and transfer files - basically any kind of USB-connected memory including a flash drive. However, as far as anyone on the list knows, you can only apply firmware upgrades using a SmartMedia card.

Has anyone called 1.800.pro.yamaha to ask if there is a workaround that doesn't require SmartMedia? I don't mind calling, but if someone already has... ;-)

-Ross

[desipianist]

Thanks, Ross.

How often does Yamaha release firmware updates?

[dalgety]

Well, that's a really good question! Since Yamaha seem to not bother to let us know when they publish upgrades, I'm not sure anyone knows how often they do it. Or even why! What good do they do if they keep them to themselves?!

See this post from Danny just today on this topic:

http://www.cvpug.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3898#post3898

We're hoping the Count can shed some light on the mysterious firmware upgrade practices of Yamaha - why they do it, and why they don't tell those who along would care about it.

-Ross

[Martyn]

Ross and desipianist:

I spent alot of effort trying to get a workaround for the SmartMedia problem. The closest I came up with was in my earlier post:- http://www.cvpug.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3890#post3890.

[DonRecardo]

Originally posted by Sunny
2. The SmartMedia card slot on the CVP operates at 3.3 V only. Your SM cards may be of the type with the operation voltage of 5V. A SmartMedia card can’ t be interchanged between 3.3 V and 5 V systems.

The cards are all 3.3v and here is what is strange

allthough all three are identical only the one that was never formatted on my pc works in the Yamaha card slot .

but even stranger is all three work on the yamaha if I put them in my 8 in one card reader attached to the usb connector on the yamaha
This made me think I perhaps had a duff card slot on the yamaha , yet I dont believe thats the case becausethe cards behave exactly the same on my wifes Yamaha 3000
on her keyboard all 3 cards work through an external card reader but only the one never formatted on a pc works in the in built card slot

Regards
Don

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Martyn, your workaround is certainly very helpful in your position and I'm sure you've helped others in the same situation.

However, you've missed the original point. Your workaround is about HOW to get the firmware files onto a SmartMedia card.

The latest point of the thread before your workaround however, was about what to do if you don't even have a SmartMedia card?! Your workaround does not help in that situation. The SmartMedia is still a requirement.

It is a matter of principle; we've just bought these expensive, new, state-of-the-art, 30x models just months ago, yet now Yamaha expects us to buy extra equipment only to be able to fix bugs that they know about (and perhaps provide apparently future functionality)? Personally I don't consider that good business practice.

Count; input please? Pretty please? I'm increasingly feeling like I'm on a righteous crusade here; I would at this time even pay more than the cost of a SmartMedia card just to get an explanation and some form of ensurance that I'll be able to keep my instrument uptodate in future.

Brgds

Danny

[Martyn]

Originally posted by dbjorck
Hi!

It is not a cost issue.

For me it is a matter of principle; if it is a required accessory for it too work properly in the future, it should be included. Much like the power cord.

Brgds

Danny

Certainly Danny, I agree a SmartMedia should be included.

It was included with my CVP 305 which came from the Yamaha distributor for South America in Panama. I suspect that it depends on the location, whether you get a SM card included or a USB floppy drive or both.

sablair says in his earlier post in this thread

The CVP 307 will run a .bat file on a floppy when it's inserted into the drive, even after the CVP is on. That's how the USA V3 software is installed.



I wonder if he has a point, in that clearly the floppy drive is conected to the USB port. What would happen if the batch file and update files were in the root of a USB thumb drive instead of on a floppy?

[Sunny]

Martyn,
Please refer to this thread: http://www.cvpug.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=862&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sunny

With the thumb drive on the USB port (and with the extracted 5 files on the root directory), I turned on the CVP while pressing [START/STOP] button, and the message said: "Please insert the installer card".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1). It was already documented that the SmartMedia slot MUST be used for firmware upgrades (even if the upgrade files were in the root of a USB thumb drive).

2). Of the 5 files provided by Yamaha for firmware upgrade, none of them is a batch file. The .bat file mentioned by sablair was only applicable to the USA Edition software.

3). The case in point is: the OS only looks for the SM slot as the default drive. The OS is not configured to scan the USB port for the upgrade files (even when the files are not detected in the SM slot).

[Sunny]

Originally posted by Sunny
1. If you're using Windows XP, and if your SM card has a capacity greater than 32MB, your PC may have formatted the SM card (by default) with the FAT32 format. The CVP most probably uses the FAT (FAT16 & FAT12) format and can not operate with a FAT32 formatted card. However, this possibility is quite unlikely because the CVP could have reformated your SM card in the FAT format (or you may select FAT file system to reformat the SM card with your Windows XP PC).

OK, Don:
I was on to something earlier about the FAT format, but apparently I didn't realize that the CVP (or a digital camera for that matter) may not be able to reformat a SM card previously formated on a pc.

Here's the scoop: The heart of the problem is that memory cards keep track of their available space differently than most (current) computers do. Most memory cards use a 12-bit file-allocation system, vs the 16 bit of DOS and early Windows, and the 32 bits used in Win 98, ME, 2000, or XP. Likewise, Macs use 32 bit file systems these days. One consequence of these differences between computers and CVPs (or cameras) is that *sometimes* when a computer writes something to a memory card, it'll garble the file structure so the CVP can't recognize it any more. Worse, because of the mismatch between how the computer keeps track of files, and what the card is set up to handle, the computer can even mess up a card's file system to the extent that the computer itself can no longer sort it out.

Not bad enough? Try this: It's possible for a card to get so messed up that neither the computer nor a camera (or CVP) can even "reformat" the card to let you start from scratch! (Apparently, the reformatting process needs to move some data around to get started, and if there's no place to move that data to, the reformatting process can't proceed.)

[Sunny]

It's worth mentioning that although the above is generally applicable to most flash memory cards, SmartMedia is more susceptible to the problem (than CompactFlash, for instance) because SM cards don't have an onboard controller chip. The controller that implements the ATA interface and the software driver for SM cards reside in the host systems.

To avoid problems, always erase/reformat memory cards inside the camera (or the CVP in this case), not in the card reader.

Originally posted by DonRecardo

Is there any way to un format it in the PC , so that hopefully I can then re format in the CVP and use it in there

Regards
Don
Don,
Try to reformat the SM card in your PC using the FAT (not FAT32) file system. After reformatting, try to read the card in the CVP built-in SM slot. Please let us know if this would solve your problem.